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Message
re: Question for Conservatives: How do I simultaneously hold two contradictory beliefs?
Posted on 1/16/20 at 5:13 pm to gthog61
Posted on 1/16/20 at 5:13 pm to gthog61
quote:
For example, don’t tread on me has nothing to do with supporting the police in enforcing the law
Since your first example (presumably what you think is your biggest zinger) is irrelevant there is no need to read the rest.
Wow. Most laws are unjust when enforced by cops... Never mind, thank you for leaving.
0
Posted on 1/16/20 at 5:19 pm to Bard
quote:
You missed the point. Firearm prohibition is something that needs to be defeated in order to be able to hold government in check (again: see Virginia). Recreational drug use is merely a want. Trying to equate the two tells me you don't truly understand the differences.
My point is government (people) has no right to ban other consenting people from owning/using/selling things, whether it be guns, drugs, large sodas, etc. If there’s no non-consenting victim, there’s no crime, and no justification for defensive force.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 5:43 pm to TigerWhatIR
Limited government is still government, but the power of government requires consent of the governed.
Government cannot solve every shortcoming in life.
Government can do some things that accrue to the public good. Roads, bridges, an armed force to defend our borders and interests are some legitimate functions of government.
All government departments beyond the defense, state and treasury departments should be reviewed as to whether they truly require federal government control. Education is a local issue. I’m disappointed that every republican has appointed a secretary of education. Close the department. It filters money through an entrenched bureaucracy and produces bad outcomes.
I’m sure there are other examples.
Government cannot not make everyone have the same outcome at the end of their life. People get the freedom to become their future. Some people live for the now, others plan for a future. Some choose to subsist; others choose to build businesses or become a professional.
I know we need the roads and it is beneficial for most of us to have highway systems. I’m ok with government tending roads. A road goes from A to B to C and so forth.
Government cannot solve social problems. Poverty will always exist. Some people make better decisions than others. Some people are more talented than others. It’s not “fair”, but it’s always been that way.
Government cannot create wealth. It can take it from someone and filter it through a bureaucracy and give some of it to someone else. We should have a government that encourages the generation of wealth. Then the standard of living can rise.
We are close to deprofessionalizing medicine. Government bureaucracy and the exponential costs of computers have basically flatlined physician income for a generation. Once the government decides what you make, you have no control over anything. It’s happening in medicine with large organizations choking out the small physician owned practices. The goal of the dems is for you to be seen at the “VA” while they have a personal doctor on retainer. The VA is not all bad, but the system is not what I think most people envision for their healthcare.
Government cannot solve every shortcoming in life.
Government can do some things that accrue to the public good. Roads, bridges, an armed force to defend our borders and interests are some legitimate functions of government.
All government departments beyond the defense, state and treasury departments should be reviewed as to whether they truly require federal government control. Education is a local issue. I’m disappointed that every republican has appointed a secretary of education. Close the department. It filters money through an entrenched bureaucracy and produces bad outcomes.
I’m sure there are other examples.
Government cannot not make everyone have the same outcome at the end of their life. People get the freedom to become their future. Some people live for the now, others plan for a future. Some choose to subsist; others choose to build businesses or become a professional.
I know we need the roads and it is beneficial for most of us to have highway systems. I’m ok with government tending roads. A road goes from A to B to C and so forth.
Government cannot solve social problems. Poverty will always exist. Some people make better decisions than others. Some people are more talented than others. It’s not “fair”, but it’s always been that way.
Government cannot create wealth. It can take it from someone and filter it through a bureaucracy and give some of it to someone else. We should have a government that encourages the generation of wealth. Then the standard of living can rise.
We are close to deprofessionalizing medicine. Government bureaucracy and the exponential costs of computers have basically flatlined physician income for a generation. Once the government decides what you make, you have no control over anything. It’s happening in medicine with large organizations choking out the small physician owned practices. The goal of the dems is for you to be seen at the “VA” while they have a personal doctor on retainer. The VA is not all bad, but the system is not what I think most people envision for their healthcare.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:11 pm to TigerWhatIR
quote:
BTW I’m a conservative.
No you're not really one or you would not have botched conservative positions so poorly in your OP.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:18 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
No you're not really one or you would not have botched conservative positions so poorly in your OP.
He's not a conservative, by his own description he's an anarchist/capitalist. Limited government is not the same as no government.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:21 pm to TigerWhatIR
quote:
My point is government (people) has no right
Wrong. The government has every right because duly elected representatives of the citizenry passed laws stating such (except for things specifically defined in the Constitution, like firearms). The beauty of our system is that if these representatives went against the wishes of their constituents or the contsituency's wishes chancge, then they will eventually be changed out for someone who will more aptly represent them.
The problem I think you (and others) have is that it doesn't happen overnight. Government is slow to pass legislation but it's even slower in repealing legislation.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:28 pm to efrad
quote:
So....
1. Government is always a monopoly
2. There are structures in place to attempt to reduce this effect
3. But they don't work
You're kinda making his point for him
In the framework he's laid out, government is indeed a monopoly. It's a sophomoric way of looking at it, but I am not so myopic as to not see it and discussing it within that framework doesn't mean I agree with it as a general rule. I also find it an interesting mental exercise.
To your point though, no system of government is perfect because government itself is almost a living organism and as such seeks to not just continue living but to expand and reproduce. The job of voters is to know when to trim it back and to elect people who will do that.
Sadly the true failing here isn't our government but the electorate that repeatedly sends big-government types (whether on purpose or through laziness) back to DC.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:33 pm to TigerWhatIR
Conservatives make shitty libertarians?
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:42 pm to TigerWhatIR
I love that you felt the need to respond to my thread. 
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:55 pm to TigerWhatIR
Epic post and look at all the downvotes! I agree with you though OP, although being a hypocrite isn’t confined to the right. Great examples though
Posted on 1/16/20 at 6:59 pm to ChineseBandit58
quote:
not one of those is valid
Which one for example?
Posted on 1/16/20 at 8:24 pm to efrad
quote:
It's funny that you all assume he's a liberal when he's arguing the opposite.
I guess I wasn't clear. I totally agree with him and thought it was a great comment. My comment wasn't sarcasm.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 8:47 pm to Bard
quote:
Wrong. The government has every right because duly elected representatives of the citizenry passed laws stating such (except for things specifically defined in the Constitution, like firearms). The beauty of our system is that if these representatives went against the wishes of their constituents or the contsituency's wishes chancge, then they will eventually be changed out for someone who will more aptly represent them.
Wrong. You only have the right to use defensive force against the aggression of others. Someone using heroin or drinking a 32oz Big Gulp is not violating your rights, so you have no right to initiate force against him.
Getting a majority of neighbors together who all vote to use such force against him doesn’t make it right either.
A few dozen men getting together 240 years ago and voting to impose violence/force on their neighbors as well as all future generations doesn’t mean they had the right to do it either. As the Founders explained, the Constitution is only authorized by the consent of the governed.
Do you understand what consent means? If someone doesn’t consent to that system, you leave them alone.
As for voting bad politicians out, how well do you think that has ever worked? Here’s a better idea: The Free Market. If a security/policing firm keeps employing corrupt cops/guards, or a restaurant serves crappy food, or a court arbitrator is unfair, word gets out and people instantly take their dollars elsewhere without having to wait and hope they get voted out of business.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 8:53 pm to TigerWhatIR
Well that explains a lot...
Posted on 1/16/20 at 9:18 pm to TigerWhatIR
Boy that’s an awfully broad brush you’re painting with.
Posted on 1/16/20 at 9:26 pm to TigerWhatIR
quote:
- MOLON LABE / Don’t Tread On Me
- Support the Thin Blue Line that treads on us and enforces gun control laws
Not necessarily a contradiction.
You can support police keeping the peace, and still hate the bullshite assholes that take their jobs way too far.
I'll take it a step further....
-"cops shoot black folks in the street because they hate black folks"
-"give up your guns, you shouldn't have them. The cops will protect you."
Posted on 1/16/20 at 9:51 pm to SoulGlo
What percentage of cops do you believe would refuse to enforce gun control laws, all of which are unconstitutional, including conceal carry licenses? 0%? 1% 5%?
Posted on 1/16/20 at 10:33 pm to TigerWhatIR
quote:
How do I simultaneously hold two contradictory beliefs?
I don't know. How do you do that?
Posted on 1/16/20 at 11:11 pm to TigerWhatIR
While i know you're mostly a troll and certainly not a conservative. You already said your an an/cap. But i'm board sitting here wasting your tax dollars at work. So i'll bite.
First these aren't "conservative beliefs" there is no conservative doctrine that outlines what you wrote. You might have heard someone who professes to be a conservative say one or two of these things, but not all of them.
Second some of these are just pure fallacies, straw men or false equivalencies, or outright bull shite.
This is not a fair comparison really. Don't Tread on Me is a saying and not a conservative philosophy, and both sides use it. Also you can support police and law and order without supporting everything police do. You lump all law enforcement in together and they are not all the same. City, County, State, Federal all have different levels of accountability and culpability. Some have too much power and not enough oversight.
I don't have a problem with either.
White Nationalism is a B.S. liberal talking point though. If you are white and support America your somehow a racist. that's ignorant! But i do support the KKK and any other racial hate group to say any stupid shite they want. I can also think they're inbreed morons, so long as they aren't actually committing acts of violence or terrorism. If they do, then they are criminals and should be prosecuted. I don't believe in policing speech "hate" or otherwise.
Not all cops are bad, in fact most a good people.
Not all Muslims are bad nor are they all potential terrorist, but the vast majority of global terrorism is committed by Muslims.
Socialism has ALWAYS failed and resulted in the mass suffering and death of the people under its thumb. So yes it's bad. The free market is better and where ever it can be applied is best.
However, the government is necessary in order to maintain a civilization. something that has been proven throughout history. If you think community defense works...then ask the Indians how that worked out when a large invading force decided it wanted their lands. And community policing is all well and good until the community decides they don't like a certain skin color and decides to lynch them for whistling at their women.
Yes
A totally unregulated free market would probably be anarchy (I know you like that) but some limits and protections are needed. Companies killing people because they don't care what they put in their products is bad. Taking peoples money unscrupulously is bad. they free market may sort all that out but at what cost?
True.
All drugs should be legal, but there also has to be regulation. Heroin was once advertised as a cure all and put in kids cough syrup. It's highly addictive and usually fatal. If you know all that and still use it, good one less idiot in the world.
This is stupid.
Muslims have and continue to kill people over Muhammad and Koran. I would say that's pretty fricking irrational!
I've never heard of a single person being killed for stomping on the flag. I also think its stupid, but competently within their rights. I think the fact that so many republicans fired back at Trump for suggesting making flag burning a crime shows this is NOT a conservative value.
We should never back down from the demands of terrorist. Ever!
Well its probably best not to try and fight the cops, or kill them, but there are legal resources available to deal with unlawful actions of police. and yes i know you think all laws are unlawful. I know you think there should be no police and no laws. But that is no longer civilization or society. Laws are required to have a civilized society and laws are agreed upon by the people who live in that society. Do we have too many...yes. But that's another topic.
TLDR, don't care I appreciate you paying my salary while i type this and trample on the rights of my fellow service members!
First these aren't "conservative beliefs" there is no conservative doctrine that outlines what you wrote. You might have heard someone who professes to be a conservative say one or two of these things, but not all of them.
Second some of these are just pure fallacies, straw men or false equivalencies, or outright bull shite.
quote:
- MOLON LABE / Don’t Tread On Me
- Support the Thin Blue Line that treads on us and enforces gun control laws
This is not a fair comparison really. Don't Tread on Me is a saying and not a conservative philosophy, and both sides use it. Also you can support police and law and order without supporting everything police do. You lump all law enforcement in together and they are not all the same. City, County, State, Federal all have different levels of accountability and culpability. Some have too much power and not enough oversight.
quote:
- White Nationalism is evil and racist
- Jewish Nationalism (Zionism) must be supported; it’s racist to oppose it
I don't have a problem with either.
White Nationalism is a B.S. liberal talking point though. If you are white and support America your somehow a racist. that's ignorant! But i do support the KKK and any other racial hate group to say any stupid shite they want. I can also think they're inbreed morons, so long as they aren't actually committing acts of violence or terrorism. If they do, then they are criminals and should be prosecuted. I don't believe in policing speech "hate" or otherwise.
quote:
- Not all cops are bad, it’s just a few bad apples. They don’t make the laws, they just enforce them.
- All Muslims are bad and potential terrorists even though a tiny percent actually commit serious crimes
Not all cops are bad, in fact most a good people.
Not all Muslims are bad nor are they all potential terrorist, but the vast majority of global terrorism is committed by Muslims.
quote:
- Socialism/Socialized services are bad; Free Market is better
- We need services like roads, defense, arbitration, policing to be socialized services handled in government monopolies
Socialism has ALWAYS failed and resulted in the mass suffering and death of the people under its thumb. So yes it's bad. The free market is better and where ever it can be applied is best.
However, the government is necessary in order to maintain a civilization. something that has been proven throughout history. If you think community defense works...then ask the Indians how that worked out when a large invading force decided it wanted their lands. And community policing is all well and good until the community decides they don't like a certain skin color and decides to lynch them for whistling at their women.
quote:
- Government is corrupt, incompetent, untrustworthy
- Certain things are too complex and important to be trusted to the free market and must be handled by government
Yes
quote:
- We can’t give the free market a try because it might result in an oppressive monopoly
- Government is an essential, oppressive monopoly power
A totally unregulated free market would probably be anarchy (I know you like that) but some limits and protections are needed. Companies killing people because they don't care what they put in their products is bad. Taking peoples money unscrupulously is bad. they free market may sort all that out but at what cost?
quote:
- Guns don’t kill people. People do.
- We need to keep heroin banned because it kills people and causes crime.
True.
All drugs should be legal, but there also has to be regulation. Heroin was once advertised as a cure all and put in kids cough syrup. It's highly addictive and usually fatal. If you know all that and still use it, good one less idiot in the world.
quote:
- Celebrate Independence Day and our Founders who were cop killers, law breakers, looters, rioters, etc.
- True Patriots obey the law and respect law enforcement officers
This is stupid.
quote:
- Muslims are irrational, evil terrorists for threatening violence against those who disrespect the Koran or Muhammad
- Stomp on the American Flag and I’ll stomp on your face!
Muslims have and continue to kill people over Muhammad and Koran. I would say that's pretty fricking irrational!
I've never heard of a single person being killed for stomping on the flag. I also think its stupid, but competently within their rights. I think the fact that so many republicans fired back at Trump for suggesting making flag burning a crime shows this is NOT a conservative value.
quote:
- We should never back down to the demands of terrorists
- The best way to not get killed by cops (redcoats) is to obey their commands
We should never back down from the demands of terrorist. Ever!
Well its probably best not to try and fight the cops, or kill them, but there are legal resources available to deal with unlawful actions of police. and yes i know you think all laws are unlawful. I know you think there should be no police and no laws. But that is no longer civilization or society. Laws are required to have a civilized society and laws are agreed upon by the people who live in that society. Do we have too many...yes. But that's another topic.
TLDR, don't care I appreciate you paying my salary while i type this and trample on the rights of my fellow service members!
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