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re: Ownership of a college degree is a poor proxy for intelligence, imo
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:07 pm to the LSUSaint
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:07 pm to the LSUSaint
quote:
I know many people with higher level degrees than me and aren't close to my IQ score. So absolutely having a degree does not make you a smarter overall person.
Someone totally illiterate can also possess a high level of intelligence, your choice of adjectives my be an example.
0
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:10 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
College doesn't make ppl more intelligent, and not all intelligent ppl go to college.
However, the question of whether ppl w degrees are, on average, more intelligent is an empical question. If I had to make a hypothesis, I would say that yes, on average, college graduates are more intelligent than non grads.
On average. Key phrase.
However, the question of whether ppl w degrees are, on average, more intelligent is an empical question. If I had to make a hypothesis, I would say that yes, on average, college graduates are more intelligent than non grads.
On average. Key phrase.
This post was edited on 3/15/17 at 12:11 pm
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:11 pm to boogiewoogie1978
quote:Which is one of the most common Conceptualizations of intelligence.
Getting a degree doesn't mean you're smart. It means you have the ability to learn which is what employers are looking for.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:20 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Does anyone really think a sorority girl from Mississippi state is more smart than a general store owner from 1921?
Of course not! Look at some standardized high school tests (math, history, geography etc.) from 80 yrs ago and most college students would bomb those tests. There was a time, not long ago, (1970-80'S) when your high school counselor would kinda let you know if you should move towards college or occupational training. Now college is a fricking racket, 20-30% of the people who attend will never get any ROI back with their near worthless degrees.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:25 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
I think degrees are much easier to obtain than they once were, too. Most people who use it as a measure of intelligence (but really mostly use it as a way to look down on others) sound like mediocre people desperate to be accepted by the elite class by parroting what they believe are elite ideals.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:25 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:Depends on the local economy. In most places in the south or midwest this is definitely true. However, there are some job markets in this country where it is still a seller's market. Anywhere doing military R&D for example.
20-30% of the people who attend will never get any ROI back with their near worthless degrees.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 12:55 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
most people go to school because it's an economic necessity in the 21st century.
Most girls go to college and major in Elementary Educ because it's an easy class load while looking for a husband.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 1:38 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
You Suffer From the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:14 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:Well standardized tests were pretty poor 80 years ago. I mean until the WISC was revised, intelligence tests had very little (or plain flawed) theoretical, empirical, or psychometric foundations.
Look at some standardized high school tests (math, history, geography etc.) from 80 yrs ago and most college students would bomb those tests.
Now with the computing power, and the use of item response theory and factor analysis, the tests now have strong psychometric properties, are largely theoretically based, have empirically support internally and externally. Each specific item is carefully created, tested, and analyzed before it's even included in a test.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:18 pm to TheLSUTiger
quote:How do you infer that from the OP? He didn't indicate the the believes he had superior ability, and although I disagree with some of his reasoning and conclusions, it's not exactly indicative of inferior ability.
You Suffer From the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
So I see no basis of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Although maybe my conclusions are evidence of it in this post; however, now that the preceding statement concurred it, then that negates the likely of that effect.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:22 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
In general: College education is not a great proxy for intelligence...but there is no easily accessible alternative.
Details:
You make a great point about time periods, but I don't think most people that use education levels in analysis really do cross-time comparisons. For example: "People with a college degree voted for X candidate."
Details:
You make a great point about time periods, but I don't think most people that use education levels in analysis really do cross-time comparisons. For example: "People with a college degree voted for X candidate."
quote:I could quibble with this. Not sure why top schools are particularly different.
Outside of top schools, most people go to school because it's an economic necessity in the 21st century.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:24 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:Despite the increase in attendance possibly decreasing the value, there is still a strong relationship between education and income. So it still has a lot of value.
Now college is a fricking racket, 20-30% of the people who attend will never get any ROI back with their near worthless degrees.
That being said, the costs of education are probably the biggest thing inhibiting the value. Of course, like everything else, the government taking over the student loan business probably had a major negative effect on this.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:27 pm to BigJim
quote:Well they need to control for cohort effects, or at least account include another variable that could control for this like income.
You make a great point about time periods, but I don't think most people that use education levels in analysis really do cross-time comparisons.
quote:Yeah. In general, would imagine an engineering degree from an average University is more valuable than a humanities degree from an Ivy League school, expecially if they aren't pursuing higher degrees.
I could quibble with this. Not sure why top schools are particularly different.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 2:57 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
20-30% of the people who attend will never get any ROI back with their near worthless degrees.
73% of all stats are made up with no basis in fact.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 4:40 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Although maybe my conclusions are evidence of it in this post; however, now that the preceding statement concurred it, then that negates the likely of that effect.
I am guessing the OP does not have a college degree and or he has never lived outside his hometown or home state. College is much more than just becoming "smarter". It is a place where most of us are exposed to thoughts and people that are not the same as our own. The people I know that think they are smarter than everyone else are non-college educated and they have never lived outside of the town they were born hence the DK Effect. But I know there are exceptions to this rule.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 4:45 pm to TheLSUTiger
what you said is not pertinent to my OP. You said that college is a place where you get "exposure to different ideas". Ignoring the dubious nature of such a statement, there are innumerable other ways to get exposure to other ideas.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 5:20 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
After working in higher ed for nearly a decade I can't even begin to tell you the number of PhD's I met that were literally some of the dumbest people I've ever met. I mean just resoundingly stupid to the point they would make you question the validity of your degree(s).
I always laugh at "education snobs" because of this.
I like to use my father as an example: barely graduated HS, never went to college (I'm first generation college student on both sides of my family), dirt poor growing up, but retired at 60 (could have retired at 55) as a millionaire.
If you ever met him, you would assume he was in idiot due to the fact that he doesn't say much, yet if you toured his house, barn, property, and the lands he owns, you would quickly realize he is brilliant. Not to mention the inevitable arse kicking he would give you watching a round of jeopardy or playing trivial pursuit. He still consistently beats me and my siblings in brain games even though we have 7 degrees between us.
I always laugh at "education snobs" because of this.
I like to use my father as an example: barely graduated HS, never went to college (I'm first generation college student on both sides of my family), dirt poor growing up, but retired at 60 (could have retired at 55) as a millionaire.
If you ever met him, you would assume he was in idiot due to the fact that he doesn't say much, yet if you toured his house, barn, property, and the lands he owns, you would quickly realize he is brilliant. Not to mention the inevitable arse kicking he would give you watching a round of jeopardy or playing trivial pursuit. He still consistently beats me and my siblings in brain games even though we have 7 degrees between us.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 6:31 pm to boogiewoogie1978
quote:
This
Getting a degree doesn't mean you're smart. It means you have the ability to learn which is what employers are looking for.
Yep. A liberal arts degree shows not only the ability to learn, but the ability to learn a diversity of subject matter. If you learned geology, Spanish, anthropology, calculus, and music theory, then you can probably learn logistics, supply acquisition, or market analysis.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 7:27 pm to Haughton99
quote:
20-30% of the people who attend will never get any ROI back with their near worthless degrees.
73% of all stats are made up with no basis in fact.
You're right, it may be higher than 20-30%, I've known several people the past 10-15 yrs who have college degrees that are working jobs that did not require their college degrees.
Posted on 3/15/17 at 7:44 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:Do you have evidence that they never end up getting a job more appropriate to their education level, or evidence that they didn't get some financial benefit from their jobs given their higher level of education, or evidence that they didn't get an opportunity for advancment at their job because of their education?
I've known several people the past 10-15 yrs who have college degrees that are working jobs that did not require their college degrees.
Seems you're assuming a lot, unless you know all of that.
quote:Now even if you're right about that those several people that you've met across a decade and a half didn't have any positive ROI, the "possibly" 20 to 30 percent figure is just absurd logic.
You're right, it may be higher than 20-30%,
First of all, those several (3 to 5?) would have to be 20 to 30 percent of the college graduates that you've met to even establish that figure. Have you only met about 15 or so college graduates?
Even then, do you ever wonder that maybe you're limiters experiences are not very representative? I mean if you live in a rural area, or a state with fewer jobs or at least fewer job fields, then maybe it's not the degree so much as the location.
Either way, your reasoning is ridiculous, especially since there is a lot of evidence that there is a strong ROI regardless.
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