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Opposing Arguments for Border Control

Posted on 11/12/18 at 12:59 pm
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 12:59 pm
4 additional measures needed for immigration control

quote:



1. Any business that hires undocumented workers, jail the business owner for a felony crime and immediately shut down the business. People will scream that you’re penalizing US citizens, lowering the US tax base, hurting employment. All of those statements are true. But the reality is that the vast majority of undocumented aliens come for jobs. All of the stuff about national IDs and additional checks—that doesn’t address the issue. As long as there are jobs, that will be a “pull” that brings undocumented workers desperate for work. So shut down all business and jail all business owners who hire undocumented workers.

2. I mentioned “pull”…the other dynamic is “push.” In Honduras and El Salvador, there is a bloody battle between death squads and gangs and the government. As long as the youth of that country are faced with the option of joining a gang or being killed, you will see parents sending their 14 year old kids to the US by themselves. Or selling all of their possessions and setting off on foot to come to the US to claim asylum. The “caravan” that Trump was railing about? Almost entirely made up of asylum seekers from Central America. So how do you end that push? The US seeks approval (it would be granted) and provides military, police and equipment support plus major dollars to eradicate gangs in El Salvador and Honduras. This would mean hundreds (and possibly more) deaths of US military and law enforcement. This would not be a cheap proposition. But if the gangs in Honduras and El Salvador were eliminated, their prisons regained control of, then you’d see asylum seekers from Central America drop to almost zero.

3. Take strong and effective action to eliminate the clout of the drug cartels in Mexico, especially in Chihuahua and Guerrero. The most effective way would probably be to legalize heroin in the US and then have the USG supply synthetic or homemade versions of it for pennies. It would not be profitable for the cartels to grow, process, and export it. You’d probably have to address other drugs as well (cocaine). Put the cartels out of business and suddenly two things happen: life is better in many parts of Mexico, jobs increase, but also the “push” for people to leave certain states in Mexico (where the options are only: go to the US or work for the cartel) would be eliminated. Let’s be clear—this drug industry in Mexico is on the US…the cartels exist b/c of the US market, not b/c they get rich selling dope to Mexicans.

4. Crack down on foreign vacations and students. Let me be real clear about this: pretty much end foreign tourism to the US and foreign students in US schools. This would result in a huge hit on the US economy. But did you know that about 34% of all visitors to Disney World come from outside the US? At least 40% of illegal immigrants in the US came here legally—usually as tourists or students. Foreign tourism is a big industry in the US. Foreign students pay much higher rates for most colleges than even out-of-state students do. If you made it much harder for people to legally enter the US by those means, you’d see a substantial decrease in illegal immigration. That’s b/c before Donald Trump tried to make it harder to cross the border, you had people coming legally and then never leaving—and this number will only go up as border enforcement increases.

Now, I oppose all of those measures. I know they’d be incredibly unpopular. Florida for instance, would go crazy over efforts to restrict foreign visitors—it would hit their tourism and real estate industries. They’d be forced to compensate for lost revenue with probably a state income tax. A range of industries (like agricultural businesses) would see prices skyrocket if you forced them to either hire only legal workers or go to jail and then we’d all be paying $4 for an apple at the store. Legalizing heroin and even cocaine would be appalling—I hate the idea of doing this. But it would put the Mexican cartels out of business. And fighting the gangs in Central America would be bloody and require tens of billions in foreign aid. All of these measures are things that most people railing against illegal immigration oppose. But I guarantee you, if we did those 4 things, illegal migration, as it current exists in the US, would dry up.
Now, the other point about these measures: they directly address why illegal immigration happens (by addressing “push” and “pull” factors). Doing things like adding border enforcement, separating families, building a wall, stiffer penalties, a National ID…none of them really address those factors. There are tens of millions of people willing to risk their lives to come here. You can make it more difficult for someone to come here illegally. But if they truly feel that it’s either death or risk coming to America, they’ll keep coming.

Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

volod


Downvoted.
Posted by Nguyener
Kame House
Member since Mar 2013
20603 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:04 pm to
Yeah frick all that, moron.
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:05 pm to
quote:

Parmen


What's wrong with my arguments?
Posted by Nguyener
Kame House
Member since Mar 2013
20603 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

What's wrong with my arguments?




You want to start a war and police south America?

You want to send our military or battle cartels in Mexico?

You want America to actively police where people can go on vacation on an individual level based on age?

No. Just no.
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 1:10 pm
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260477 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:06 pm to
Decent points.

I say eliminate social services access too
Posted by Homesick Tiger
Greenbrier, AR
Member since Nov 2006
54209 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:07 pm to
quote:

What's wrong with my arguments?



Well they are not yours to start with. WhoTF is Joe Willmore?
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

Decent points. 

I say eliminate social services access too


You could easily make a law saying anybody in Central American countries has no access to welfare. I'm not a warhawks, but I believe taking over central American governments (or at least passive control) is the best way to actually end immigration.

Read point 1 and 4. The legal immigration system is being manipulated. That's the real threat, not border crossers. The wall will only stop people taking the "easy" path to the US.
Posted by antibarner
Member since Oct 2009
23711 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:13 pm to
My ideas. One I like the idea of making it a felony to hire illegals. Make that HURT.

Two Legalize Marijuana. I think that is the cartel's big moneymaker here. I can't support legalizing hard drugs. I do support raising the penalties for trafficking in them.

Three Build the Wall and truly seal the border. Also get serious about the visa overstays. Time to get the hell out of Afghanistan and worry about the problems much closer to our own borders. If we have to go in and slaughter these gangs so be it. Give those people their countries back. If they decide to support the bad guys and fight an insurgency war against us pull the hell right out seal our southern border tight and let them live in Hell for doing it. Their call.
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 1:15 pm
Posted by RollTide4Ever
Nashville
Member since Nov 2006
18309 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:20 pm to
Cartels will shift their focus on hard drugs. You need to get over it, and face this issue upfront. H3ll, I would be trying to put these cartels out of business by any means necessary.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
23704 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:23 pm to
I’m with you on Number 1, but have little interest in the other three.
Posted by SDVTiger
Cabo San Lucas
Member since Nov 2011
73585 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:25 pm to
quote:

Two Legalize Marijuana. I think that is the cartel's big moneymaker here.


It's the last on their list of moneymakers

It's not 1970s and they are just growing it legally here. Why do you think all these fires have started in Cali
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Three Build the Wall and truly seal the border. Also get serious about the visa overstays. Time to get the hell out of Afghanistan and worry about the problems much closer to our own borders. If we have to go in and slaughter these gangs so be it. Give those people their countries back. If they decide to support the bad guys and fight an insurgency war against us pull the hell right out seal our southern border tight and let them live in Hell for doing it. Their call.


The US doesn't need to fight. Just support a coalition to take out the gangs. The governments can easily be coerced ( they already rely on the US illegally anyway).

What my detractors dont realize is that we are already funding these CA countries via drug trade and allowing their migrants to work here. We may as well get the tax revenue from proxy control and trade partnerships. The resulting wealth generated on both sides would eliminate the illegal immigration because it's easier to find a job versus being killed at the border.
Posted by Ten Bears
Florida
Member since Oct 2018
3280 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:31 pm to
quote:

1. Any business that hires undocumented workers, jail the business owner for a felony crime and immediately shut down the business. People will scream that you’re penalizing US citizens, lowering the US tax base, hurting employment. All of those statements are true. But the reality is that the vast majority of undocumented aliens come for jobs. All of the stuff about national IDs and additional checks—that doesn’t address the issue. As long as there are jobs, that will be a “pull” that brings undocumented workers desperate for work. So shut down all business and jail all business owners who hire undocumented workers


Wow...thank for letting me know that I have to expand my business and open up an investigative division...


Listen, I am all about securing the boarder, but it ain't my job, or my company's mission n statement, to play Inspector Clouseau…

So, beyond complying with I9 requirements, am I supposed to water board potential illegals?


Posted by Aubie Spr96
lolwut?
Member since Dec 2009
41112 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:34 pm to
While I REALLY oppose a border wall, all of those solutions you posted are worse. Way worse. Except for 3. Ending the war on drugs would be the best first step to end illegal immigration.
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:45 pm to
quote:

Aubie Spr96


Even the author admits these are not popular options. Especially the tourism control.

But as you even acknowledged, the wall by itself isn't enough. Trump will probably spend the rest of his 8 years trying to get this above the ground (pun intended). But we need real drug liberation and VERY strict Visa checks to stop this problem.
Posted by Jake_LaMotta
Coral Gables
Member since Sep 2017
5700 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:48 pm to
I love how they try and create the narrative that people aren't pouring over the southern border and have been for Decades. The majority of Illegal Immigrants in this country are from Mexico and Central America.
Posted by DrunkerThanThou
Unfortunately Mississippi
Member since Feb 2013
2846 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 1:55 pm to
Even if we somehow managed to wipe out the cartels in Central America that still wouldn’t stop the mass migration. Many are coming here for economic reasons plain and simple. Just look at Europe, vast majority of their “refugees” aren’t fleeing the civil war in Syria. Most are migrants looking to take advantage of the generous welfare states. If they were simply fleeing war, the ones that did arrive would settle in Greece and Italy. While those places have issues from the sheer numbers arriving, the bulk are trying to make their way to Germany, Sweden etc

From a cost benefit standpoint, I don’t think invading CA and setting up proxy governments would have any effect other than radically destabilizing the region, resulting in a massive influx fleeing the conflict
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 1:58 pm
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 2:16 pm to

The other issue is withdrawal of the gangs. Most gangsters are cowards at heart. They only cause so many problems because no one can stop them. As soon as our military goes in, those gangs are only going to engage in a few conflicts before going into hiding.

Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
90602 posts
Posted on 11/12/18 at 2:39 pm to
I support destroying the Central American gangs.

Instead of legalizing heroin though just send the military in and wipe out the cartels and their operations
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