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re: Odd goings on at the Jerusalem Temple AD30 to AD70.

Posted on 1/7/26 at 5:22 am to
Posted by cssamerican
Member since Mar 2011
8211 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 5:22 am to
Your synergy is even stronger than you think.

In Scripture, forty is the number of testing and transition, as seen in Israel’s forty years in the wilderness.

In AD 30, Jesus pronounces the verdict in the Olivet Discourse, declaring that this generation would not pass away until the stones of the Temple were thrown down.

From AD 30 to AD 70, that specific generation lives under warning rather than immediate judgment. During this period, Talmudic signs record the lot coming up on the left, the ribbon remaining red, and the lamp failing to stay lit. God is holding the door open for repentance while the signs Jesus described unfold. This is the season of watchfulness and discernment commanded in the Olivet Discourse.

Crucially, Jesus does not tell His followers to defend Jerusalem or remain in it. He commands them that when they see the city surrounded, they are to flee to the mountains and not look back. The early church took this warning literally. Eusebius, in his Ecclesiastical History, records that the Christians in Jerusalem fled to the mountain city of Pella before the siege began, and as a result, no Christians perished in the destruction of the city.

This was not merely an escape from judgment, but an act of divine preservation. By removing the church from Jerusalem before the Temple fell, God ensured the continuity of the faith and freed it from being buried in the ruins of the old system. The church survived, spread, and multiplied precisely because it trusted the words of Christ over the security of the stones.

In AD 70, the generation reached its fortieth year and the Roman siege was executed. The generation passed away exactly as the Temple stones were cast down, just as Jesus said.

The wise virgins represent those Jews who recognized the signs of the times, accepted the Way, and received the Messiah so that Christ lived within them by the Spirit. They understood that God’s presence was no longer bound to the building, and they kept their lamps burning because the oil was within them.

The foolish virgins were not outsiders and they were not uninformed. They were invited and expected entry, yet they failed to carry the oil needed to endure the delay. When the decisive moment came, they were shut out, not because they lacked invitation, but because they lacked the Spirit. For this reason, the bridegroom says he does not know them. The kingdom was entered by those in whom Christ dwelled.

In AD 30, Jesus, the true Passover Lamb, was rejected. Exactly forty years later, in AD 70, the Roman army breached Jerusalem during Passover. The Temple era did not fade gradually. It ended on the precise anniversary of its rejection, confirming that the warning, the delay, and the execution unfolded exactly as the Olivet Discourse foretold.
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6793 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 7:10 am to
quote:

The Bible says repeatedly that Christ died once for all and is now seated at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1). He is not subject to being called down and sacrificed again and again by Roman Catholic priests (imagine the audacity). Put your faith in Christ alone, not his imagined presence in a piece of bread.


But my problem is that Jesus explicitly says "this is my body..." and "Do this...". He could easily have taken the Protestant line and won the crowd back. Instead, he doubled down.

It is a difficult teaching.

Also, the Catholics and Orthodox deny that Christ is bring re crucified. They claim that they are being made present to the one sacrifice that already happened.”
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 7:12 am
Posted by Canon951
Member since May 2020
615 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 7:16 am to
quote:

We will continue this Sacrifice of Thanksgiving until the End of Time.

This Sacrifice is not only symbolic, it must be a real Sacrifice.


Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Not sure what you are going on about in this post?
Posted by Canon951
Member since May 2020
615 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 7:17 am to
quote:

Actually, He prefers obedience over sacrifice.


Actually he prefers faith over anything else.
Posted by McLemore
Member since Dec 2003
35323 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 7:18 am to
quote:

He is not subject to being called down and sacrificed again and again by Roman Catholic priests (imagine the audacity). Put your faith in Christ alone, not his imagined presence in a piece of bread.


The discussion has now shifted from one pagan cult (AD Judaism) to another (Romanism / Papism). A natural progression I suppose.
I will say that RC dogma does not claim that the Eucharist/mass is actually killing Jesus over and over. It’s an odd mix of symbolism and actual flesh eating. Depending on who’s trying to defend it.

ETA: Papist downvotes are more precious than a sea of indulgences.
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 12:06 pm
Posted by Pragmatist2025
Member since Jun 2025
993 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 7:22 am to
An aside, what do you think the ‘wailing wall’ is, if not part of the remains of an old Roman garrison built where the temple once stood?
Posted by 87PurpleandGold
Arkansas
Member since Sep 2016
884 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:06 am to
Very interesting from both a historical & spiritual viewpoint. It's also fascinating to watch Israel move closer to bring all this back with the red heifers, the Temple Institute, etc. One of the most amazing attributes of the Almighty that I'm just intrigued with, is His patience & grace. Now is the time of salvation, and with all the evil we see every where being revealed, He still wishes that none perish. His patience blows my mind. Hebrews basically states that if wrath and death was the result of the law, how much more with a better covenant. 2,000 years later, and the message is still the same. See your sin, turn and repent, believe in Jesus and His sacrifice for us, and walk as a new creation. Renew your mind in His Word. When you mess up, confess it to Him, and He is faithful in forgiving you.
Posted by cssamerican
Member since Mar 2011
8211 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:09 am to
quote:

Actually he prefers faith over anything else.

How do define faith?
Posted by Canon951
Member since May 2020
615 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:13 am to
quote:

How do define faith?


Faith in the finished work of his son.
Posted by cssamerican
Member since Mar 2011
8211 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:17 am to
quote:

The Bible says repeatedly that Christ died once for all and is now seated at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1). He is not subject to being called down and sacrificed again and again by Roman Catholic priests (imagine the audacity). Put your faith in Christ alone, not his imagined presence in a piece of bread.

The Eucharist is the sacred practice Jesus gave us, commanding, “Do this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24–25). From the earliest days, as reflected in the Didache, believers gathered doing this. In this act, we participate in His life, death, and resurrection, joining with the faithful across time in covenantal communion.

Each celebration is both a memorial and a proclamation: we remember Christ’s sacrifice and affirm that His presence is alive among His people. Through the Eucharist, we are united as one body, called to live in His light and extend His love into the world, carrying forward the covenant He fulfilled for us.

This isn’t just a Catholic thing.
Posted by cssamerican
Member since Mar 2011
8211 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:18 am to
quote:

Faith in the finished work of his son.

But what is faith, without using faith in the definition?
Posted by Canon951
Member since May 2020
615 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:21 am to
quote:

But what is faith, without using faith in the definition?


Belief or being convinced that something is true and trusting in that thing that you believe to be true.
Posted by cssamerican
Member since Mar 2011
8211 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:40 am to
quote:

Belief or being convinced that something is true and trusting in that thing that you believe to be true.

Okay, I asked because I don’t think faith is simply believing that something is true. In the Bible, faith is steadfast loyalty and trust in God, even when doubts arise. Scripture shows that questions and struggles don’t disqualify faith as long as our hearts remain committed to Him. Faith is rooted in trusting God Himself, not in being certain about every detail. At least that is how I perceive it, I also think that resolves the whole faith vs works thing. If you are a loyal servant then works will be there as evidence.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
55277 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 8:54 am to
I'm not sure why your keep repeating that word "once", as though it has some kind of certain and complete meaning in a Theological sense. If that works for you, that's fine with me.

But the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross exists outside of your comprehension of the meaning of words and the meaning of Time itself. It exists eternally in the Present, because, for Jesus Christ, there is no "Time". "Time" as you and I understand it, does not exist for Jesus Christ. He created "Time" when he created all things. Do you suppose that Jesus Christ created "Time" so that he could put Himself inside of that box and exist in there? Inside of "Time", which He created? No, of course not.

You understand "Time" as humans understand "Time". But God's Ways are not Man's ways, and for God, there is no "Time". As such, the word "once" in the Bible passages that you quoted has meaning, but not some kind of meaning that would impose "Time" on God.

PS Isn't there some recent Theoretical Physics research that questions whether "Time" exists at all?

This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 8:55 am
Posted by Canon951
Member since May 2020
615 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 9:00 am to
quote:

Okay, I asked because I don’t think faith is simply believing that something is true. In the Bible, faith is steadfast loyalty and trust in God, even when doubts arise. Scripture shows that questions and struggles don’t disqualify faith as long as our hearts remain committed to Him. Faith is rooted in trusting God Himself, not in being certain about every detail. At least that is how I perceive it, I also think that resolves the whole faith vs works thing. If you are a loyal servant then works will be there as evidence.


Jesus promised everlasting life to whosoever believes that he is the Christ. When he asked Martha she not only said she believed him but she clarified what she believed. This is what I believe saves someone. Belief that Jesus is the messiah and the he alone can save us. All the works, etc. are for "after" we believe. If they are being included as part of the believing then that is where we disagree.

John 11:25–26 (ESV)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 11:27 (ESV)
She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”

Martha didn't add anything extra to this nor did Jesus clarify her.

quote:

In the Bible, faith is steadfast loyalty and trust in God, even when doubts arise.


Where does it say this? Peter denied Jesus 3 times.

quote:

not in being certain about every detail.


I never said this. I am talking about being convinced in who Jesus is and what he accomplished on our behalf. Everything else is extra.

quote:

If you are a loyal servant then works will be there as evidence.


To a degree, but everyone is at different levels and some do more works than others. We are horrible judges so we shouldn't be judging others by their works. God saves us through faith in his son. We do the works as evidence of our faith and to help others. God doesn't need our works.
Posted by BTROleMisser
Murica'
Member since Nov 2017
13613 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 9:12 am to
JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOs!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6793 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 9:25 am to
This is my idea of what faith is. Or at least how what most people see as "faith" begins.

Faith, in the most basic sense, is not a feeling or an idea you agree with in your head. It’s a response. It’s something you do. In Scripture, faith always shows up as action, even when that action is simple. When Israel was dying from snake bites in the wilderness, God didn’t ask them to understand why a bronze serpent would help. He told them to look. That was it. Looking didn’t heal them by itself. Looking was the act of trust. Life came because God attached a promise to that action. Faith was not the cure; faith was the turning toward what God provided.

Jesus later takes that exact story and applies it to Himself: “Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life” (John 3:14–15). Belief here isn’t abstract agreement. It’s movement toward Him. It’s orientation. Faith is choosing to face God rather than turning away, even when you don’t fully understand what He’s doing or how it works.

That’s why faith is also relational. You don’t “have faith” in a vacuum. You trust someone. In the serpent story, the people trusted God enough to act on His word. In the gospel, faith is trust placed in Christ as a person, not just acceptance of a theory about Him. And faith always carries a promise with it. God binds Himself to the response. Look and live. Turn and be healed. Trust and receive life. Faith doesn’t force God’s hand, but God has chosen to meet faith with grace. That’s the pattern: action, relationship, and promise...working together.
This post was edited on 1/7/26 at 9:27 am
Posted by Pragmatist2025
Member since Jun 2025
993 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 10:07 am to
Maybe faith is personal and defined in the heart of the individual, as is the working of the spirit of God in a heart, like the wind. Weak or strong, loud or quiet, but there. We may quote scripture and say it is this or it is that, but if the inward man is drawn towards the goodness that comes from God, would that not be faith in the purist sense, regardless of how any might try to codify it?
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46851 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 11:09 am to
quote:

I'm not sure why your keep repeating that word "once", as though it has some kind of certain and complete meaning in a Theological sense. If that works for you, that's fine with me.

But the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross exists outside of your comprehension of the meaning of words and the meaning of Time itself. It exists eternally in the Present, because, for Jesus Christ, there is no "Time". "Time" as you and I understand it, does not exist for Jesus Christ. He created "Time" when he created all things. Do you suppose that Jesus Christ created "Time" so that he could put Himself inside of that box and exist in there? Inside of "Time", which He created? No, of course not.

You understand "Time" as humans understand "Time". But God's Ways are not Man's ways, and for God, there is no "Time". As such, the word "once" in the Bible passages that you quoted has meaning, but not some kind of meaning that would impose "Time" on God.
Jesus created time, and He entered into His creation within time.

Jesus, in His human nature, is subject to the passing of time. His sacrifice happened once in-time, and is not a perpetual event for all people to partake of. We partake in the benefits of His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the cross when we are enjoined to Him by faith. The benefits of the cross are perpetual, but the event, itself, happened once in the past.

Jesus was born, lived, died, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven during moments in time. That's what the incarnation was about: God entering into His own creation, subjecting Himself to the infirmities of a human nature except that He was without sin.
Posted by 87PurpleandGold
Arkansas
Member since Sep 2016
884 posts
Posted on 1/7/26 at 12:00 pm to
A good chapter to read is Hebrews 11 on faith. As you say, it's an inside conviction of something you cant see. Usually, it's eventually backed up by action. Life has a way of testing all of us. Our response, rather than the acual issue, is what is important. In ch 11, God tested Abraham. He came close to sacrificing his own son. God stopped him at the last minute. However, when God saw his faith and the level to which he was willing to go, He blessed Abraham and his descendants forever. As Believers, we become Abraham's descendant through faith in His Son, Jesus. If we respond in a lesser manner, He is faithful and gives us grace. Peter denied him 3 times just as Jesus foretold that he would. Peter said he'd never deny him. Sometimes, WE dont even know how we will respond till that moment arrives. After Peter denied him, he wept because he wasn't as strong as he thought. But Jesus still forgave him. He told Mary after He had risen, Go tell Peter. That basically tells you He forgave Peter and for him not feel shame because He overcame death. He meets us where we personally are, and we grow in his grace over time. It's that first step, however, that is important.
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