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re: "No Amendment is absolute."

Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:43 pm to
Posted by KAGTASTIC
Member since Feb 2022
7989 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:43 pm to
If you don't say anything at all you actually say something by not saying anything....that can be taken anyway the judge/jury wants to take it.

you are fishing to justify the govt to have the ability to go after people for saying whatever they want like under "hate crimes." so if you call someone something the govt has chosen is not wanted they can persecute them. We will go round and round dude, but we aren't going to convince each other. Trying to have the Constitution "evolve" is not something I agree with.
Posted by Indefatigable
Member since Jan 2019
35686 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:44 pm to
quote:

Personally, I do think that the statute is constitutional, because I do not think that nuclear weapons are "arms" for purposes of the Second Amendment ... being instead "ordnance," the ownership of which is NOT protected by the Second Amendment

Ok. You cannot possess a 9mm handgun in the terminal of an airport without presenting certain credentials or having certain approvals pursuant to federal law.

That is a limitation, or infringement, on your right to keep and bear the handgun. Is it not?
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 3:48 pm
Posted by Timeoday
Easter Island
Member since Aug 2020
17585 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:45 pm to
quote:

The founding fathers did not fathom personal machine guns or semiautomatic guns, high capacity guns, etc.


The founding fathers obviously agreed we could bear arms. The word "arms" is certainly not absolute.

It is true, the founding fathers did not fathom "gooberment" or personal machine guns or semiautomatic guns, high capacity guns, etc.

Which is why the word arms was used. Whatever gooberment uses the people can use.
Posted by Indefatigable
Member since Jan 2019
35686 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:45 pm to
quote:

you are fishing to justify the govt to have the ability to go after people for saying whatever they want like under "hate crimes.

That is absolutely nowhere close to what I am saying.

I am saying that the amendments have limits. That is it. That is my point.

They simply DO have limits.

quote:

We will go round and round dude, but we aren't going to convince each other. Trying to have the Constitution "evolve" is not something I agree with.


For at least the third consecutive time, your post has NOTHING at all to do with my post that you are responding to.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 3:47 pm
Posted by Buryl
Member since Sep 2016
1022 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

Every amendment is absolute or none of them are. Yes I'm aware that Congress can change them but don't see that happening anytime soon


This is your own personal (and incorrect) interpretation. Rejecting reality doesn't change reality.
Posted by Mid Iowa Tiger
Undisclosed Secure Location
Member since Feb 2008
23738 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

This is a true statement.


If you mean through the proper process and channels that is true. No branch of government can change them though.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

Let’s allow everyone “protect” themselves with bazookas, grenades, and what the heck, maybe a cruise missile. The founding fathers did not fathom personal machine guns or semiautomatic guns, high capacity guns, etc. Armies fought with muskets which fired a few times per minute.
I think that the Founding Fathers envisioned a tiny standing army and participation in the militia by a huge percentage of the adult male population. I also think that they expected those militia members to be able to provide their own personal weapons. An M4-variant is the modern equivalent of that 18th-century musket.

As I read the Amendment, the Founders also intended that the federal government would have no authority to prevent ANY citizen from the owning the weapons that he would need for militia service, regardless of whether the citizen was an active participant in the militia.
Posted by Sam Quint
Member since Sep 2022
8047 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

Personally, I do think that the statute is constitutional, because I do not think that nuclear weapons are "arms" for purposes of the Second Amendment ... being instead "ordnance," the ownership of which is NOT protected by the Second Amendment.

where are you finding this definition of ordnance? not US military doctrine, at least to my knowledge. are you just making this up? and a nuclear weapon is certainly "arms". i'm not making an argument for or against the right of a private citizen to own a nuclear weapon, but i am curious where you are getting this from
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 3:52 pm
Posted by Sam Quint
Member since Sep 2022
8047 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 3:54 pm to
quote:

I think that the Founding Fathers envisioned a tiny standing army and participation in the militia by a huge percentage of the adult male population. I also think that they expected those militia members to be able to provide their own personal weapons. An M4-variant is the modern equivalent of that 18th-century musket.

As I read the Amendment, the Founders also intended that the federal government would have no authority to prevent ANY citizen from the owning the weapons that he would need for militia service, regardless of whether the citizen was an active participant in the militia

this is my uneducated non-lawyer take on it as well.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:02 pm to
quote:

where are you finding this definition of ordnance? not US military doctrine, at least to my knowledge. are you just making this up? and a nuclear weapon is certainly "arms". i'm not making an argument for or against the right of a private citizen to own a nuclear weapon, but i am curious where you are getting this from
Go back and look at the definitions of those terms as used in the 18th century.

The term "arms" referred to man-portable weapons. Even a grenadier was considered an "ordnanceman" rather than a infantryman, because earlier grenades were a two-man affair. As another example, a SAW (which obviously did not exist in the 18th century) would not have been "arms" as the term was used at the time.

Yes, the definition of the term has broadened in the ensuing two centuries. But I am a Strict Constructionist, not a "living document" guy. Constitutionally, the words mean what they meant when the language was drafted.
Posted by Sam Quint
Member since Sep 2022
8047 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:07 pm to
ok so you're basically extrapolating (for lack of a better word) what those words meant in the 18th century with regards to certain pieces of military equipment and what their 21st century counterpart would be. makes sense. thanks.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:11 pm to
quote:

This is still a limit on free speech. Can I say whatever the frick I want with whatever intent I choose, whenever I choose to say it?

If I cannot do so unequivocally under any circumstance imaginable without repercussion from the government, then my freedom of speech is in fact limited.




You are pretending that any time speech is involved in, or incidental to, a crime, that the absolutist doctrine is invoked. This is the worst defense of relativism and limitations I've ever seen. And it's a pretty poor attempt at trying to box people into a corner. I suppose next you're going to tell me that laws against armed robbery are also a limitation on speech because you may be inclined to say, "this is a stick up!".

When you resort to perjury, knowing the two most important elements are materiality and intent, and claim that is a statute somehow designed as a limitation on speech...you're telling me you have no argument.

There's a reason perjury convictions don't happen when people speak lies but believe they are saying the truth. The SCOTUS has specifically addressed this type of situation, because if that happened, then we would definitely have a limitation / chilling, because people would be petrified to open their mouths at all.

I did find it interesting that you invoke absolutist language to attack absolutism. Made me laugh.

I'm starting to wonder if this is a troll.


Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:35 pm to
quote:

I am saying that the amendments have limits. That is it. That is my point.


The Second Amendment places no limits on individuals.

Technically, I suppose you're correct in that the Second Amendment limits the government.
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
18861 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:47 pm to
quote:

You can’t have a thermonuclear weapon as a private citizen



Argument made by imbeciles. What part of a nuclear weapon is considered "ordinary military equipment"?
Posted by geauxbrown
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
25223 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:53 pm to
Is Trump still bitching about losing to Sleepy Joe?
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
18861 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 4:57 pm to
quote:

As another example, a SAW (which obviously did not exist in the 18th century) would not have been "arms" as the term was used at the time.


No, the SAW is not a crew-served weapon and certainly fits the OME definition of arms. Since most crew-served systems are common in weapon platoons of current infantry I would say they fit the definition of "arms" as OME too now.
Posted by BigJim
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
14964 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 5:04 pm to
quote:

Trump's comments RE: the Constitution are cut from the same cloth.


No, they aren't. Let's be honest. Trump wasn't plotting to undermine the constitution, nor was he making a sophisticated legal point about a balancing test.

He just said some stuff without thinking too much about it. Like he always does.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 5:18 pm to
quote:

No, the SAW is not a crew-served weapon
I did not say otherwise. But it strikes me as the type of weapon that would’ve been provided by the sponsor of the militia, rather than by the individual infantryman of the 18th century.
Posted by Bayoutigre
29.9N 92.1W
Member since Feb 2007
5900 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 5:45 pm to
The original framers of the constitutional allowed for for changes.by votes of congress two thirds overwhelming majority and three forths of the state legislatures to ratify.as long as the rights of life liberty property and persuit of happiness are not infringed
Posted by Pelican fan99
Lafayette, Louisiana
Member since Jun 2013
38882 posts
Posted on 12/5/22 at 5:52 pm to
quote:

It isn’t. You can’t have a thermonuclear weapon as a private citizen and pretending like you don’t understand why is a bad look
the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with nukes tf you blabbering about
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