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Message
re: Net neutrality, what is this boards consensus?
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:11 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:11 pm to FooManChoo
quote:There is no market in many places. I live in a building in Houston where Comcast is literally the only option if you want to cut the cord. (I suspect they rolled out their data caps here to try and reduce the economy of cord cutting.)
The market can and will correct itself in such a case.
0
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:13 pm to joshnorris14
OK So I've read your posts in this thread and they are not really grounded in an actual concept of how things actually work. I deal with ISPs all around the globe on a daily basis constantly building up and tearing down our networks. No I do not work for an ISP, but I am a Network Engineer for a multinational corporation.
First your whole concept of Mesh Networking is rooted in a technology that has a problem that even DARPA struggled with, and couldn't really solve, for our military. In the Middle East which I saw you cited here. Mesh networks crumble with large loads and members. It may be great for pinging messages around a small to medium sized group of people, but a mesh network won't give you anything of scale.
Furthermore your whole premise is predicated on the reliability of a half-duplex technology that is prone to all sorts of interference. Also, all of these nodes as you are calling it, would likely be operating in unlicensed spectrum, I am assuming, which is low power and won't really cover any sort of distance.
But most importantly, you don't seem to have an understanding of how different networks connect to each other at interconnects. You have to get into one of these, and pay some provider to connect to their networks. You need lots of physical infrastructure for that point alone. At some point, to get to Netflix, you need to connect to the backbone.
The idea of a p2p ISP sounds fancy and great on paper, but in the real world, it won't really work. You seem to have completely forgotten about or not truly understood all of the physical infrastructure that is involved. It's not as simple as developing an app.
ETA: Until the corruption at the state/county/city level can be removed, you can't remove Net Neutrality and expect good things to happen. I am a pretty devout libertarian, but if you have government sponsored monopolies or duopolies at the local level, you are going to have a bad time. Until you can stop the local ISP monopolies you need Net Neutrality. I would be very happy to do away with both.
First your whole concept of Mesh Networking is rooted in a technology that has a problem that even DARPA struggled with, and couldn't really solve, for our military. In the Middle East which I saw you cited here. Mesh networks crumble with large loads and members. It may be great for pinging messages around a small to medium sized group of people, but a mesh network won't give you anything of scale.
Furthermore your whole premise is predicated on the reliability of a half-duplex technology that is prone to all sorts of interference. Also, all of these nodes as you are calling it, would likely be operating in unlicensed spectrum, I am assuming, which is low power and won't really cover any sort of distance.
But most importantly, you don't seem to have an understanding of how different networks connect to each other at interconnects. You have to get into one of these, and pay some provider to connect to their networks. You need lots of physical infrastructure for that point alone. At some point, to get to Netflix, you need to connect to the backbone.
The idea of a p2p ISP sounds fancy and great on paper, but in the real world, it won't really work. You seem to have completely forgotten about or not truly understood all of the physical infrastructure that is involved. It's not as simple as developing an app.
ETA: Until the corruption at the state/county/city level can be removed, you can't remove Net Neutrality and expect good things to happen. I am a pretty devout libertarian, but if you have government sponsored monopolies or duopolies at the local level, you are going to have a bad time. Until you can stop the local ISP monopolies you need Net Neutrality. I would be very happy to do away with both.
This post was edited on 1/23/17 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:13 pm to Iosh
quote:
Once AT+T/Verizon rolls out their 5G service that can hit download speeds over 1GB on your smartphone most consumers can/will chose to cut the cord.
Not unless it's capped damn generously.
Not sure how that is going to work, I know on some plans after you hit 20GB your service can be throttled back, it's all about avoiding the network from bogging down below some acceptable level of service, every damn app requires more and more data throughput capacity but unlike Moore's Law I don't think network capacity is doubling every 6-12 months.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:14 pm to Bass Tiger
20GB is nothing if you're even a casual user of Netflix. Throttling after half a season of Arrested Development is not gonna tempt anyone into cutting the cord.
This post was edited on 1/23/17 at 8:18 pm
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:17 pm to WavinWilly
quote:
WavinWilly
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:18 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Not sure how that is going to work, I know on some plans after you hit 20GB your service can be throttled back, it's all about avoiding the network from bogging down below some acceptable level of service, every damn app requires more and more data throughput capacity but unlike Moore's Law I don't think network capacity is doubling every 6-12 months
I don't know that you'll ever see wireless data at a more affordable level than a telephone/cable provider. Verizon, in my areas of Florida, are just getting to 1GB to the cell site. When they started their LTE build-out, they were pushing 50Mbps to the cell site, and going to 150Mbps within six months as an upgrade.
At some point, cell companies will be pushing a DWDM variant over fiber to their towers, but with demand the way it is, I'm struggling to see where anyone that does any heavy streaming makes the decision to go wireless as a cheaper option.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:20 pm to WavinWilly
TKO there, well done
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:25 pm to td01241
quote:
I don't care if Comcast throttles Netflix.
Not even a valid example anymore. If you have X1, you can access Netflix directly from your cable box.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:27 pm to WavinWilly
quote:
First your whole concept of Mesh Networking is rooted in a technology that has a problem that even DARPA struggled with, and couldn't really solve, for our military. In the Middle East which I saw you cited here. Mesh networks crumble with large loads and members. It may be great for pinging messages around a small to medium sized group of people, but a mesh network won't give you anything of scale.
I didn't cite any example. The most widely used example of meshing happened in Hong Kong during the protest a few years ago through the app FireChat, and as you say it was used for pinging messages. Which is a great way to get are government censorship, but not exactly as sophisticated as what we're talking about.
quote:
Furthermore your whole premise is predicated on the reliability of a half-duplex technology that is prone to all sorts of interference. Also, all of these nodes as you are calling it, would likely be operating in unlicensed spectrum, I am assuming, which is low power and won't really cover any sort of distance.
Correct, which is why, as I originally laid out in the posts you read before your condescending reply, a network would have to develop in an urban area where the distance wouldn't be the primary obstacle.
quote:
But most importantly, you don't seem to have an understanding of how different networks connect to each other at interconnects.
No, you presume I don't have any understanding.
quote:
You have to get into one of these, and pay some provider to connect to their networks. You need lots of physical infrastructure for that point alone. At some point, to get to Netflix, you need to connect to the backbone.
I just don't understand why you would assume this is a necessary point to state. Yes, you could operate as a node connected to an ISP.
quote:
The idea of a p2p ISP sounds fancy and great on paper, but in the real world, it won't really work
There already is a protocol developed that allows you to be a DISP, BitMesh. It's got scaling problems that I think would be solved via a sidechain that will incentivize DISP nodes
quote:
You seem to have completely forgotten about or not truly understood all of the physical infrastructure that is involved. It's not as simple as developing an app.
If it were as simple as developing an app, I would have already created it.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:28 pm to WavinWilly
quote:
WavinWilly
I take it you have a combination of CCIE, CISSP, and either Brocade, Juniper, or Linux on your resume with a smattering of Server 2016 and maybe ITIL thrown in for good measure?
I meant Juniper.
Jupiter is a system used in TOCs to provide a common operating picture (video wall, if you will).
This post was edited on 1/23/17 at 9:35 pm
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:30 pm to Iosh
quote:
20GB is nothing if you're even a casual user of Netflix. Throttling after half a season of Arrested Development is not gonna tempt anyone into cutting the cord.
I said some plans, I think the unlimited data plan on most carriers have a max data and then it can be subject to being throttled back. I've tested my laptop through my company Iphone using the hotspot and i get about 34MB down with a 4g signal. I'm not a netflix guy, what kinda of download speed does it require for decent service, I know you can watch streaming HD with 6meg download speeds, remember 4k is coming soon.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:32 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
I'm not a netflix guy, what kinda of download speed does it require for decent service
About 10Mbps or higher.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:33 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The market can and will correct itself in such a case.
Lol you think republicans are going to allow a free market if they can kill net neutrality.
quote:
Not to mention collision between competitors to manipulate prices is against the law.
The GOP won't do shite about this because they're in bed with big telecoms.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:42 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
I take it you have a combination of CCIE, CISSP, and either Brocade, Jupiter, or Linux on your resume with a smattering of Server 2016 and maybe ITIL thrown in for good measure?
Assuming you meant juniper when you typed Jupiter? If not definitely no jupiter experience but yes to juniper
But some yes some no. Definitely no server 2016 in my environment. Change order process too slow for that
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:51 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Not to mention collision between competitors to manipulate prices is against the law.
Yes and that law is the telecommunications act, ie Net Neutrality! Before it was enacted, it was perfectly ok to slow down speeds for some users relative to others based on many factors including what those users were doing, what bandwidth they were using, and also what company paid the ISPs to prioritize their traffic.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:58 pm to BOHICA
quote:
At some point, cell companies will be pushing a DWDM variant over fiber to their towers, but with demand the way it is, I'm struggling to see where anyone that does any heavy streaming makes the decision to go wireless as a cheaper option.
Well, it could be neighborhood wifi, I know that has been in the works for a lager scale roll out. Right now several companies are using the same principle in urban/high population areas for apartments and business, has been talk about using the same technology in residential neighborhoods that already have fiber to a cabinet which in turn is feeding video/internet service on copper to the prem.
Plan was to place a transceiver at the fiber cabinet and associated equipment at the customer, range was like a 5-10 block range depending on terrain, this would allow the telcos to abandon the copper which is very expensive to maintain. IIRC when comparing the wireless side of Verizon or AT+T to the copper side it takes 10 people in the field for copper facilities versus 1 for wireless and that's where they all want to go is wireless to save a boatload of money by reducing field costs.
And then there is AIR GIG!!!
LINK
Posted on 1/23/17 at 8:59 pm to 225bred
Government should not be regulating private businesses.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 9:07 pm to seawolf06
quote:
Government should not be regulating private businesses.
And what business is the Internet at large? Who owns it? The Internet is a free speech platform. Letting Comcast control it would turn it into a total corporate platform instead of one for free speech. This site wouldn't exist if it weren't for net neutrality, nor would really any other site that is not owned by the Big Six.
There's a difference between corporatism and capitalism. Ending net neutrality would ensure we became corporatists with only monopolies running what we hear. If you enjoy Drudge, then kiss it goodbye if net neutrality is revoked. Sorry, but there have to be some regulations over what companies can do, and this is one of them.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 9:14 pm to seawolf06
These private businesses are mostly government created monopolies.
It is a necessary evil.
It is a necessary evil.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 9:15 pm to seawolf06
quote:
seawolf06
Imagine you own a business that sells hunting videos online. You are doing well, making big money in your private business. Another company sees this and decides it wants to get some of that. They start a similar service, but pay multiple ISPs money to make their video content stream fast and more reliably than yours.
They sign a contract to do just that. You can't compete with them - your service is just slower, and always will be because it's designed to deliver your competitor's data faster. They runs commercials proving how slow you are compared to them. They grab almost all of your customers because of this. After all, who wants to wait 30 seconds while the video buffers while your competitor's loads almost instantly.
That is why government should regulate some aspects of a public service...and make no mistake it is a public service at this point in human history. This is what net neutrality is designed to stop. If you disagree and believe it should be a free for all, then so be it. Different strokes for different folks - but the situation above happened before in many instances and will happen again if reclassified.
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