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Mouse studies in 1960s predicted current cultural degeneracy
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:33 am
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:33 am
John B Calhoun, scientist
Smithsonian write up
In July 1968, four pairs of mice were introduced into the habitat. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.
Sound familiar?
A new conclusion came though, years after the fact, from more liberal scientists.
So you see? The isolated, 'beautiful ones', that didn't have sex, kids, or any normal social interaction were actually just the mice 1%.
A lot of parallels to be drawn here.
Smithsonian write up
In July 1968, four pairs of mice were introduced into the habitat. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.
quote:
Initially, the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly, doubling only every 145 days. The last surviving birth was on day 600, bringing the total population to a mere 2200 mice, even though the experiment setup allowed for as many as 3840 mice in terms of nesting space. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against.
quote:
At the peak population, most mice spent every living second in the company of hundreds of other mice. They gathered in the main squares, waiting to be fed and occasionally attacking each other. Few females carried pregnancies to term, and the ones that did seemed to simply forget about their babies. They’d move half their litter away from danger and forget the rest. Sometimes they’d drop and abandon a baby while they were carrying it.
The few secluded spaces housed a population Calhoun called, “the beautiful ones.” Generally guarded by one male, the females—and few males—inside the space didn’t breed or fight or do anything but eat and groom and sleep. When the population started declining the beautiful ones were spared from violence and death, but had completely lost touch with social behaviors, including having sex or caring for their young.
Sound familiar?
quote:
After day 600, the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting and only engaging in tasks that were essential to their health. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed "the beautiful ones." Breeding never resumed and behavior patterns were permanently changed.
The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.
A new conclusion came though, years after the fact, from more liberal scientists.
quote:
Inglis-Arkell explains that the habitats he created weren’t really overcrowded, but that isolation enabled aggressive mice to stake out territory and isolate the beautiful ones. She writes, “Instead of a population problem, one could argue that Universe 25 had a fair distribution problem.”
So you see? The isolated, 'beautiful ones', that didn't have sex, kids, or any normal social interaction were actually just the mice 1%.
A lot of parallels to be drawn here.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:39 am to cokebottleag
People weren't meant to live on top of each other. There's studies that mental illness is often attributed to living in close proximity to other people. When I retire I'm moving out into the sticks with a woman and raising sled dogs.
This post was edited on 8/15/18 at 11:39 am
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:39 am to cokebottleag
That was an interesting read. Humans and it seems even lower animals need some form of struggle to give them a reason to live. I'm really hoping, for our species sake, we make some big break through in space travel.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:39 am to cokebottleag
I’ll read link later.
Was this ever replicated? I’d like to see if others observe the same thing, etc.
Interesting
Was this ever replicated? I’d like to see if others observe the same thing, etc.
Interesting
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:47 am to cokebottleag
This stud toy used to be cited often In college psychology classes.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:48 am to BlackHelicopterPilot
Agreed. The link is worth a read later this evening.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:50 am to cokebottleag
I'm picturing mouse rap and lots of tats.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 11:57 am to cokebottleag
quote:Sounds like Owlie......
Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting and only engaging in tasks that were essential to their health. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:03 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
That was an interesting read. Humans and it seems even lower animals need some form of struggle to give them a reason to live. I'm really hoping, for our species sake, we make some big break through in space travel.
This where I am as well. Humanity needs new territories to explore and develop for society.
People used to have large families out of need for workers and help maintaining society, now people have kids out of personal fulfillment.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:04 pm to cokebottleag
quote:Was there a mouse study done in 1885 that predicted the cultural degeneracy of just the following 80 years? Because the culture leading up to the 1960s was radically more degenerate than it is now.
Mouse studies in 1960s predicted current cultural degeneracy
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:06 pm to TigerCruise
quote:
People weren't meant to live on top of each other
And I get shite for being anti-social
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:09 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:23 pm to cokebottleag
I think we are attributing a lot of human qualities to a rodent. How are they quantifying these data points and where is their control group? If you watch mice run around all day and you have a bias you can make yourself believe you see all sorts of things.
From your link...
From your link...
quote:
Ultimately, “[r]ats may suffer from crowding; human beings can cope,” Ramdsen says. “Calhoun’s research was seen not only as questionable, but also as dangerous.” Another researcher, Jonathan Freedman, turned to studying actual people — they were just high school and university students, but definitely human. His work suggested a different interpretation. Moral decay could arise “not from density, but from excessive social interaction,” Ramsden says. “Not all of Calhoun’s rats had gone berserk. Those who managed to control space led relatively normal lives.”
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:24 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
That was an interesting read. Humans and it seems even lower animals need some form of struggle to give them a reason to live.quote:
]I'm really hoping, for our species sake, we make some big break through in space travel[/b].
Me too, but I ain't goin nowhere.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:30 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Ultimately, “[r]ats may suffer from crowding; human beings can cope,” Ramdsen says. “Calhoun’s research was seen not only as questionable, but also as dangerous.” Another researcher, Jonathan Freedman, turned to studying actual people — they were just high school and university students, but definitely human. His work suggested a different interpretation. Moral decay could arise “not from density, but from excessive social interaction,” Ramsden says. “Not all of Calhoun’s rats had gone berserk. Those who managed to control space led relatively normal lives.”
Excessive social interaction doesn't sound like today's social media insanity?
The 'relatively normal lives' that some of them live is the 'beautiful ones'. But even that has parallels to modern incel SJWs or MGTOWs.
The colony died. All of them. Extinct. It didn't matter that there might have been some normal mice left, somewhere in the Mouse Utopia. It wasn't enough.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 12:57 pm to cokebottleag
As the article said, humans are not mice.
While it opens interesting avenues, it doesn't provide any real questions or answers, as a colony of animals failing in spite of human intervention happens a lot.
Studies on animal hoarding probably providea similar and very less sanitary look at the same thing.
While it opens interesting avenues, it doesn't provide any real questions or answers, as a colony of animals failing in spite of human intervention happens a lot.
Studies on animal hoarding probably providea similar and very less sanitary look at the same thing.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 1:06 pm to cokebottleag
I cite the “mouse utopia” study often. Very similar to our current situation.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 1:12 pm to cokebottleag
Mouse Sodom and Gomorrah
Posted on 8/15/18 at 1:15 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
I'm really hoping, for our species sake, we make some big break through in space travel.
My main argument when I hear people saying we are wasting money on space exploration while we have too many problems on Earth. Humans were meant to explore and reach out, not sit in one place and turn inward. Our entire history involves reaching out and exploring. Gives us purpose and something to reach for.
Posted on 8/15/18 at 1:18 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
My main argument when I hear people saying we are wasting money on space exploration while we have too many problems on Earth. Humans were meant to explore and reach out, not sit in one place and turn inward.
I'm just letting you know right now - it's going to be tough out there on the belt. The subsequent generations will have thin bones and problems due to low-G. And always caught between Earth and Mars like a bone to be chewed.
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