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Message
re: Mississippi wins right to enforce religious exemptions law
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:17 am to MastrShake
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:17 am to MastrShake
Give it up. You are willfully ignoring the difference between "killing in the name of" and "killing because of a command to". There is absolutely nothing in the Christians scriptures that justifies wholesale murder and slaughter of innocents. In fact we find commands against such things. Jesus, Himself, provided us an example of where His followers are not fight or kill others for the kingdom of God because it is a spiritual kingdom that is won through repentance and faith, not through bowing the knee due to threats of violence and death (like Islam).
As a religiously conservative Christian who has studied the scriptures and heard all of the arguments, you are woefully blinded by your hatred on this.
As a religiously conservative Christian who has studied the scriptures and heard all of the arguments, you are woefully blinded by your hatred on this.
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Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:22 am to MastrShake
quote:If God worked like that since the ministry of Christ, you'd have a point to make here. But God doesn't, so you don't.
...it is in no way contrary to the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' to wage war at God's bidding...
he's talking about holy wars, which are basically anything religious people want them to be. Eric Rudolph was killing people with bombs because he thought thats what god wanted. even now the Army of God publishes the things he writes condoning violence and militant action against gay people and abortion clinics.
Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, and so you cannot force people to become Christians because Christianity requires a change of heart that cannot be commanded at the edge of the sword. Those who kill or wage war in the name of Christ are ignorant of the scriptures they claim to fight for.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:27 am to bfniii
quote:
(religion) is stone age superstition
quote:no. actually its exactly what religion is. people had no idea what was going on in the natural world around them, so they made up gods to explain it.
silly unprovable assertion
quote:
think of islamic terrorism, think of the crusades, think of the death squad run by a priest in columbia, or the death squad run by catholics in argentina, or the death squad in kenya, or the evangelicals across africa doing things like deciding gay people should get the death penalty.
quote:equating religion with stalin, mao, and pol pot is not the winning strategy you think it is.
stalin, mao, pol pot....
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:30 am to MastrShake
quote:
these are the exact reasons the bill was written, to allow discrimination based on these reasons
You can say that till you are blue in the face, for there isn't a single word or loophole that would let a privately owned for-profit entity to deny to provide services to a gay individual.
It ONLY gives option of refusal for gay marriage.
Two dads want to buy their son a cake, they cannot be refused service.
Two gays go on a date in a restaurant where they display public displays of affection, they cannot be refused service.
The closest the bill comes to being discriminatory is if you want to be a pubically gay member of the clergy, or a direct employee of the church.
But given the situation, I really do not see that as a denial of opportunity.
Now, if the bill stated ANYONE could refuse to hire or house based on the stated conditions of section 2 based on religious conviction, we would have a major problem.
But it doesn't. So we don't.
Get over it.
I don't think there is an oppressed subsection of homosexuals that are being denied their rights to work spreading the word that they are immoral sinners.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:33 am to FooManChoo
quote:ironic choice of words.
Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, and so you cannot force people to become Christians because Christianity requires a change of heart that cannot be commanded at the edge of the sword.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Jesus in Matthew 10:34
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:34 am to MastrShake
quote:This goes back to the "silly unprovable assertion" comment that was made. Unless you have evidence of people in the stone age thinking, saying, or writing that, you have nothing more than conjecture.
no. actually its exactly what religion is. people had no idea what was going on in the natural world around them, so they made up gods to explain it
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:39 am to MastrShake
quote:
no. actually its exactly what religion is. people had no idea what was going on in the natural world around them, so they made up gods to explain it.
True or not is irrelevant.
At the end of the day this bill is simply a state attempting to protect 1st amendment rights.
Unless you want to start a process to excise parts of it, you are going to have to change your perspective.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:42 am to MastrShake
quote:Obviously you have no clue what that verse means.
ironic choice of words.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Jesus in Matthew 10:34
Read the context of that passage in chapter 10. Jesus is telling his disciples that persecution is coming because of Him (the faith).
"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves" (v 16)
"Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake," (vs 17 and 18)
"Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake." (vs 21 and 22)
"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next," (vs 23)
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." (v 28)
And let's just finish the rest of that quote starting in verse 34:
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
What Jesus is talking about is that His ministry, death, and resurrection will inevitably create division even within households, where Christians will be persecuted by their own families for what they believe. "The sword", that Christ is referring to, is in reference to Christians being killed.
This post was edited on 6/23/17 at 9:43 am
Posted on 6/23/17 at 10:09 am to FooManChoo
quote:this is astounding at this point.
Unless you have evidence of people in the stone age thinking, saying, or writing that, you have nothing more than conjecture.
there are museums filled with this evidence. you can literally go look at it. you can go to caves and touch it.
the stories in the gospel however, are complete fanfiction. from start to finish, none of it ever happened.
there was never any census that caused mary and joseph to go the Bethlehem, all the miracles are copied from other widely known stories about "gods", and things like Matthew 27 about Pilate...
quote:none of this this ever happened. theres not a single historical record of any kind that even hints at a single word of it.
Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you say. And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
Then Pilate said to Him, “Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?” But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.
Taking the Place of Barabbas
Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished. And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.
Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy.
While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.”
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
its simply not true.
yet THIS is the part you believe?
Posted on 6/23/17 at 10:12 am to MastrShake
quote:
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
He is talking about the spiritual armor of god, you idiot.
ETA: since you can't win the discussion about the Mississippi law you've now resorted to making this thread a religious argument.
This post was edited on 6/23/17 at 10:14 am
Posted on 6/23/17 at 10:15 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Christianity requires a change of heart that cannot be commanded at the edge of the sword.
This ignores quite a bit of the history of the spread of Christianity. Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:01 am to MastrShake
quote:I'm very much aware of the study of early religion. What I was talking to was the implication that religion sprung up out of nowhere to explain the natural world that no one understood at the time. There are no records of such a thing as far as I'm aware.
this is astounding at this point.
there are museums filled with this evidence. you can literally go look at it. you can go to caves and touch it.
quote:I see you have just as much faith as I do
the stories in the gospel however, are complete fanfiction. from start to finish, none of it ever happened.
How do you know nothing in the gospels ever happened? Josephus, an early-A.D. Jewish historian corroborated the existence and general works of Jesus. Luke, for example, was a doctor and very good at the details of peoples, places, and events. Many of them have been supported through archaeology and historical surveys. To say that everything contained is completely made up is just not true.
quote:1. The census as depicted by Luke is not impossible and therefore not a good use of something that didn't happen. A brief study of the situation can be found here.
there was never any census that caused mary and joseph to go the Bethlehem, all the miracles are copied from other widely known stories about "gods", and things like Matthew 27 about Pilate..
2. Miracles being similar or the same as other religions does not mean much. Many of the miracles Jesus performed were actually performed in the Old Testament, so Jews at the time would be very familiar with sight being restored and illness being cleansed. The miracles, themselves were just a sign that the one performing them was a message-bearer of God.
3. Not sure what you're referring to about Pilate so you'll have to be more specific.
quote:What didn't happen? That Christians were persecuted for what they believed or that Jesus ever said that? The Bible is an evidence that Jesus said it, just not one that convinces you.
none of this this ever happened. theres not a single historical record of any kind that even hints at a single word of it.
its simply not true.
yet THIS is the part you believe?
In regards to such persecution happening, just check out how Christians were treated under Nero and you'll understand that what Jesus said was true.
The principle he was talking about (that Christians will be persecuted for their faith, even within their families) is true even today, even if such persecution doesn't come by the literal sword.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:03 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:It doesn't ignore anything. The Bible teaches that salvation comes by faith. Faith is not something that you can force anyone to have, thus anyone who has tried to convert someone else to Christianity by the sword is in violation of the Bible. Regardless of what has happened through history, my point is that there isn't justification for it in the Bible. Killing in the name of Christ is as Christian as worshiping Allah or Vishnu.
This ignores quite a bit of the history of the spread of Christianity.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:05 am to Volvagia
quote:There are only two possibilities here I think-He is truly too dumb to understand, or he figured out his initial take was a massive misreading of the bill, and he's too much of a prick to admit he was wrong.
Dude.
You are missing the point of the law.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:32 am to MastrShake
quote:so you went to inordinate lengths to do exactly what i predicted you would do - conflate the foibles of institutional christianity with individual praxis/belief. congrats. moreover, you flew right over the overwhelming historical precedent of innumerable christians spending their own money to go into perilous situations just to minister to and serve others - a practice that's been going on since the time of christ. have you ever studied the history of christian missions?
some quotes from christians on the history of christian violence
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:37 am to MastrShake
quote:forcing someone to provide services to them against their beliefs? how is that NOT wrong? especially when all they have to do is FIND SOMEONE ELSE to perform the same service, of which there are PLENTY of businesses who would gladly do it. you keep ignoring this aspect.
these people have done nothing wrong
quote:you can't continue pretzel logic forever. no one is equating gays with rapists. it's the principle - which you conveniently ignored. the point wasn't rape/gay. the point was you being forced to conduct business with people against your will. i don't have to use a rapist analogy. i could pick literally ANYTHING you are opposed to. rape was an easy target and you didn't even get that one.
you cant equate them with rapists just because your point is so empty that you need to disparage them to give it any weight.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:40 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:a-theism, absolutely. and doing so is on solid historical, philosophical and cultural grounds.
Is this where you try to lay those dudes at the feet of atheism?
quote:yeah, read my response. i even gave him advice beforehand on how not to fall into the trap and he dove right into it head first.
Unfortunately for you and your mythology, he already gave examples.
fyi, myth does not equal false. a myth can be an origin story.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:43 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:typically silly response. no substantiation or rebuttal at all. just blithe hand waving. "i can't deal with your point so i'll just declare it wrong by fiat." it's the richard dawkins mental gymnastics approach
This will always be wrong, no matter how often you try to use it.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:44 am to buckeye_vol
quote:yeah, you're right. none of these cases have gone to court.
Yet they didn't sue?
quote:i get the impression you haven't read/understood the point of this thread.
So maybe they were canvassing the churches to see if they could actually get married in one of them? Imagine that.
Posted on 6/23/17 at 11:44 am to bfniii
quote:
a-theism, absolutely.
Cool. Then you're wrong.
quote:
yeah, read my response.
I did. Changes nothing. Neither does your reply.
quote:
fyi, myth does not equal false. a myth can be an origin story.
I never claimed otherwise.
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