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re: Meckler: Optimistic for a Convention of States by 2026. Count at 19 right now
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:40 pm to Jjdoc
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:40 pm to Jjdoc
Is there any negative to this, like a potential Trojan horse?
States joining with alterior motives once constitutional alterations are on the table, or other states not fighting it knowing they can exert political capital once alterations are on the table.
States joining with alterior motives once constitutional alterations are on the table, or other states not fighting it knowing they can exert political capital once alterations are on the table.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 12:41 pm
3
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:42 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Any amendment proposed by the Convention goes through the exact same ratification process as amendments proposed by Congress. It must be approved by 38 states. That means if only 13 states vote no, the answer is no. It doesn’t get much safer than that!
A convention wouldn’t pass anything without the support of 38 state delegations. Those states will also ratify easily, as their delegations will be representative of the makeup of their respective legislature’s positions. There would be zero point in a COS otherwise.
quote:
They can not go beyond the scope of what is written in the COS application.
Yes, the absolutely can, and if you pay attention to every single historical example, they will. Nothing in the Constitution prevents it.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:44 pm to The Baker
Just repeal the Seventeenth amendment then close the convention. All that is needed.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:45 pm to HughsWorkPhone
quote:
Is there any negative to this, like a potential Trojan horse?
No.
quote:
States joining with alterior motives once constitutional alterations are on the table,
They can only vote on proposals outlined in the COS applications by the state houses.
This is not a process that says "a call to COS" and it's a blank page. It's laid out in the application. And states are agreeing that the federal gov needs to be held accountable to the states.
quote:
or other states not fighting it knowing they can exert political capital once alterations are on the table.
The process keeps anything not listed on the application from being raised.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:51 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
They can only vote on proposals outlined in the COS applications by the state houses.
Link? There is absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening.
I don’t know why you guys seem to think the state legislatures would suddenly differ from the delegations they send to act on their behalf. If a COS went outside the application and got the support of 38+ delegations to do it, that action is getting ratified. Those delegates are going to be in touch with their respective State’s legislative leadership—they wouldn’t be delegates if they weren’t. They aren’t going to do things that their State doesn’t support.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:53 pm to OU Guy
Of the remaining states, how many can reasonably be expected to pass it?
WY, MT, ID, SD, KS, IA, NM, KY...that's still quite a few short.
WY, MT, ID, SD, KS, IA, NM, KY...that's still quite a few short.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:54 pm to HughsWorkPhone
quote:lol
alterior motives
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:02 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
A convention wouldn’t pass anything without the support of 38 state delegations.
Doesn't matter. Their are protections in place. It will have to come back to those people who (in your theory) support it and they will have to face the people of their state in a very personal way!
quote:
There would be zero point in a COS otherwise.
Thus the application. Thanks for proving the point.
quote:
Yes, the absolutely can,
No sir, they can not.
quote:
and if you put attention to every single historical example, they will.
There has NEVER been a COS under Article V. Never.
All things in the application can be considered. Nothing more.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:03 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
No sir, they can not.
Says who or what?
There is nothing in the Constitution, the only document capable of doing so, that prevents it
quote:
There has NEVER been a COS under Article V. Never.
No, but plenty of constitutional conventions have been held, between our system and others. Everyone one of them starts with a legally limited scope, and everyone of them goes outside of it. Anything passed by a COS will have the support of 38 states. Anything with the support of 38 states will be ratified, up to and including a decision to broaden the scope of the COS.
There is nothing inherent in Article V that prevents it from happening here as well.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:04 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
All things in the application can be considered. Nothing more.
Yea, and who enforces that, hmm?
Absolutely not SCOTUS.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:05 pm to Jjdoc
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/14/23 at 10:28 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:08 pm to TigerIron
quote:
Can a convention be limited to considering only certain things?
Not in reality. It is formed on the basis of whatever the states are proposing in the application, but there is nothing preventing the COS going outside that scope as long as the COS had the support of 38 states in doing so.
I’m not sure why this thread is so focused on the 2nd. I don’t believe it would substantively change—there aren’t 38 states that support that. But there are an infinite number of ways our constitution could be made worse that have nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
quote:
If the convention agrees to proposals, what's required to make them part of the constitution? My concern would be you call the convention and then it gets hijacked to gut the 2d amendment, and Congress lets that through but nothing else.
Congress has no role in a COS. 38 States would have to ratify whatever came out of the COS, same as amendments coming out of Congress.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:08 pm to CelticDog
quote:
no education policies.
You know what the achievements of powered flight, the splitting of the atom and landing on the moon all have in common? They were all accomplished without a federal Department of Education. Amazing, isn’t it?
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:12 pm to CelticDog
quote:
list the issues this particular effort wants to address and what they want instead.
Don't want commies running the country
People that love America instead.
Sorry Celtics, your bid for congress will end if that passes
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:16 pm to Indefatigable
When I first heard about this, I had concerns about what state legislatures might do if given such an opportunity.
Now that I’ve seen the shite our federal government has been doing for most of the last 3 years or so, I find that a bit less of a concern.
Now that I’ve seen the shite our federal government has been doing for most of the last 3 years or so, I find that a bit less of a concern.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:18 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
When I first heard about this, I had concerns about what state legislatures might do if given such an opportunity. Now that I’ve seen the shite our federal government has been doing for most of the last 3 years or so, I find that a bit less of a concern.
I’m certainly no fan of Congress either.
But the risk of an open-ended COS putting everyone in the hands of the average state legislator is something I can’t get behind. At least in the Congressionally-initiated amendment process, the States are there as a check. The fox is guarding the hen house with a COS.
It’s like people forget how awfully most States are governed—for the same reasons as Congress is poorly run. There are notable exceptions, but not 38 of them.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 1:21 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:21 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Indefatigable
Your fear is not rational.
quote:
I don’t know why you guys seem to think the state legislatures would suddenly differ from the delegations they send to act on their behalf. If a COS went outside the application and got the support of 38+ delegations to do it, that action is getting ratified.
No it's not. If they went for one thing agreed upon by my local house and Senate guys and came back with something different, we the people, would already know and will 100% end the very thought.
Second, it's not allowed.
A convention could be open and general, or limited, depending on the applications of the legislatures. The application is sent to congress. It is congress that then calls for the COS to start. And it is congress that limits it to the scope of the application.
There is a reason there is an application process. There is a reason that congress is involved.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:21 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I’m certainly no fan of Congress either.
My gripes go way beyond just congress, though.
I’m don’t think most states are “awfully governed” - at least relatively speaking - either.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:24 pm to Gravitiger
quote:
lol
Ulterior*
Thanks!
Posted on 1/22/23 at 1:24 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
No it's not. If they went for one thing agreed upon by my local house and Senate guys and came back with something different, we the people, would already know and will 100% end the very thought.
That has never been the case in history. But you’re entitled to that opinion.
quote:
Second, it's not allowed.
By what?
quote:
A convention could be open and general, or limited, depending on the applications of the legislatures. The application is sent to congress. It is congress that then calls for the COS to start. And it is congress that limits it to the scope of the application.
And there is still nothing preventing the COS from expanding the scope with 38 State’s approval. If the COS and States can amend the Constitution, they can abrogate acts of Congress. You’ve cited no legal authority otherwise and there is no express limitation in Article V.
quote:
There is a reason there is an application process. There is a reason that congress is involved.
Anything Congress does can be abrogated by Constitutional amendment. Which Congress has zero part in once a COS is convened.
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