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re: Meckler: Optimistic for a Convention of States by 2026. Count at 19 right now
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:03 pm to David_DJS
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:03 pm to David_DJS
quote:
You argue that the people assembled as a COS can ignore the constitution and amend/replace the constitution by authority they give themselves.
No, I am not. I am saying a COS will not pass targeted amendments. It will replace the entire document. And the states will ratify it. Nothing there breaks the law. Nothing in the constitution says a COS has to stay on topic. A COS will give itself the authority to go beyond its assigned topics.
quote:
I thought you were arguing that the COS would unilaterally amend/replace the constitution, here we're back to 75% of state legislatures needing to ratify.
Those are one and the same. The states ARE the convention, fool. Who do you think comprises the delegations?
Read my prior edit on the six-step sequence a COS would take.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 12:05 pm
2
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:05 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
This will be the sequence of events:
1. COS called
2. State legislatures send delegates to the COS
3. COS immediately goes outside of its guidance parameters
4. COS decides that replacing is easier than amending just like every other such institution in history
5. COS passes a replacement document
6. State legislatures, who de facto comprised the delegates at the COS to begin with and thus already tacitly approved of the result, ratify whatever comes out of the COS.
And the "standard" way of amending the constitution is exactly the same as above except rather than COS delegates proposing amendments, it's congress that does.
So you're concern is rooted in a belief that congress is more sober/trustworthy than 50 different state legislatures acting as a single body.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I have more faith in politicians the closer they are to the people and less inundated by lobbyists and special interest groups they are. I'll take the state legislatures of about 40 states over congress any day.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:06 pm to Jjdoc
19/34. When you get around that 31-34 mark is where you really have to start stretching the imagination of what state / states would get us over the hump.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:08 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Those are one and the same. The states ARE the convention, fool. Who do you think comprises the delegations?
So you think the South Dakota state legislature, because they named/sent delegates to a COS with a remit to pass amendments for term limits and a balanced budget, will ratify amendments to rescind 2A rights because, after all, they sent delegates to the COS?
And you're calling me foolish.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:15 pm to David_DJS
quote:
So you're concern is rooted in a belief that congress is more sober/trustworthy than 50 different state legislatures acting as a single body.
Absolutely.
quote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but I have more faith in politicians the closer they are to the people and less inundated by lobbyists and special interest groups they are. I'll take the state legislatures of about 40 states over congress any day.
Then you know absolutely nothing about most state legislatures. They are filled with people even less intelligent and more self-serving/more incompetent than Congress.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:15 pm to BigMob
quote:
19/34. When you get around that 31-34 mark is where you really have to start stretching the imagination of what state / states would get us over the hump.
The way you get there is for blue states to believe it's in their best interests, and I don't think that's wildly unrealistic. There are reasons California and New York might be supportive of a balanced budget amendment, for example, if they believed it provided them the ability to spend more of their own money in their own state. Remember, these states believe for every dollar they send to DC, about 20% of it goes to subsidize poor red states.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:15 pm to ELVIS U
quote:
Be prepared what you wish for. A convention of states can amend your first and second amendment rights (all rights actually) away without the usual constitutional safeguards. You are playing right into their hands.
Anything that passes at a COS would have to be ratified by the state houses.
If the 2nd was a "DEAL", You would have people marching on state houses before they could vote to ratify it.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:16 pm to David_DJS
quote:
So you think the South Dakota state legislature, because they named/sent delegates to a COS with a remit to pass amendments for term limits and a balanced budget, will ratify amendments to rescind 2A rights because, after all, they sent delegates to the COS?
Nope, and nowhere did I say that.
I’m saying that 38 states would ratify whatever came out of a COS, whatever that may be (which will be an entirely new document and not it a better way)
Your hypo would not make it out of a COS.
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 12:18 pm
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:16 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
This inevitability is why no one should support a COS. It WILL lead to a worse, more burdensome and overbearing document.
BS!
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:17 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Anything that passes at a COS would have to be ratified by the state houses.
So the entities that comprised the COS would have to approve the product of a COS?
What a barrier
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:20 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
No. I’m worried that a convention will give itself the authority to do so, and just do it.
That's not the way it works.
There is a process. A COS will take all proposed agreed upon amendments back to their states where the whole of the state Legislature votes on it.
You don't think the out cry from the people of the Bill of Rights being done away with would end the very thought of it.
They can not vote a process out. It has to be ratified!
quote:
yes, I fully expect the state legislatures (aka the entities who sent the delegates to the convention) to rubber stamp anything that comes out of the convention.
Yeah... that's not going to happen. Not without people in the streets
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:27 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Nothing there breaks the law. Nothing in the constitution says a COS has to stay on topic.
Article V includes numerous safeguards that protect the U.S. Constitution and ensure that only widely approved amendments are adopted.
Any amendment proposed by the Convention goes through the exact same ratification process as amendments proposed by Congress. It must be approved by 38 states. That means if only 13 states vote no, the answer is no. It doesn’t get much safer than that!
quote:
I am saying a COS will not pass targeted amendments.
They can not go beyond the scope of what is written in the COS application.
Period.
The applications by the current states are all in agreement, in writing, to reduce the federal gov control.
YES, legally, they can NOT go beyond, nor against that application.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:27 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Then you know absolutely nothing about most state legislatures. They are filled with people even less intelligent and more self-serving/more incompetent than Congress.
You're more impressed with Obamacare, Covid dollars and the Inflation Reduction Act than I am.
What's aggregated state debt? A trillion or so?
What's federal gov't debt? $31T.
Our disagreement comes down to this - you have far more faith in Congress than I do, and I have far more faith in local gov't than you do.
In other words, you're simply against calling for a COS that has as remit to rein in federal overreach/overspending. You're not as big fan as I am of the founders' idea that more power should lie with the states (laboratories for new ideas), rather than a (I would argue today, "tyrannical") federal gov't.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:30 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Nope, and nowhere did I say that.
I’m saying that 38 states would ratify whatever came out of a COS, whatever that may be (which will be an entirely new document and not it a better way)
Your hypo would not make it out of a COS.
So striking the 2nd amendment would never make it out of a COS that would, however, replace the whole constitution?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:31 pm to David_DJS
quote:
This will be the sequence of events:
1. COS called -
2. State legislatures send delegates to the COS
3. COS immediately goes outside of its guidance parameters
4. COS decides that replacing is easier than amending just like every other such institution in history
5. COS passes a replacement document
6. State legislatures, who de facto comprised the delegates at the COS to begin with and thus already tacitly approved of the result, ratify whatever comes out of the COS.
#3. It's not "guidance". It's legally binding.
#4. Wrong. They can not go outside the scope of what the application for the current COS is for.
#5 Would immediately be null and void.
#6 State houses would be over ran and that's truth.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:32 pm to David_DJS
quote:
So you think the South Dakota state legislature, because they named/sent delegates to a COS with a remit to pass amendments for term limits and a balanced budget, will ratify amendments to rescind 2A rights because, after all, they sent delegates to the COS?
And you're calling me foolish.
He is trying hard!
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:34 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Then you know absolutely nothing about most state legislatures. They are filled with people even less intelligent and more self-serving/more incompetent than Congress.
They are more connected to their constituents than DC.
- What you are suggesting could happen can not happen legally.
- What you are worried about would result in massive massive carnage. And these local people elected to a state house KNOWS it.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:35 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
whatever that may be (which will be an entirely new document and not it a better way)
It's not a NEW document. It's a damn amendment.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:38 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
So the entities that comprised the COS
The reps sent is not the whole of the State. They do not have deciding authority.
quote:
would have to approve the product of a COS?
They would vote on the amendment(s) laid out in the application for a COS. If it passes the COS, it is sent to each state where Jim Bob is held accountable by the people he represents in a very personal way.
At that point the whole stat house votes on ratification.
Multiply that by 38 states in order to pass.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 12:39 pm to LSUAngelHere1
quote:
This is a huge reason I will be supporting Jeff Landry bc he is the guy we need at the helm and isn’t afraid to challenge the govt.
This x1000
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