re: May the Blessed Virgin Mary protect Our President TRUMP and the beautiful First Family!

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I greatly respect you as a commentator on this board, and always enjoy reading your theological perspectives. You never hesitate to declare your beliefs even when you know that you are going to get unnecessary and vile insults hurled in your direction. I consider you, sir, as one of TDs true "defenders of the faith"

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Thank you very much. I hope you don't take offense to my positions against some of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. I believe that there are true followers of Christ in all of the splintered representations of His body on earth.

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We are going to just have to agree to disagree on this one. The arguments you put forth are mostly rooted in the premise that sola scriptura is a "settled science." And as you know, Catholics do not adhere to sola scriptura. So we'll always be at an impasse as far as this thread goes.

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I agree that this is the primary sticking point between Catholics and Protestants. Even so, I believe it is an important issue to discuss because it is at the heart of all of Christianity. If we cannot trust God's word then we cannot trust anything we might believe about Jesus and salvation. This topic comes down to the issue of authority.

While traditions can be helpful, are they as authoritative as the scriptures? If they are, then what do you do if there is an apparent conflict between the two? The authority of the scriptures are clear (2 Tim. 3:16) as they come from God, Himself. Since we know that God cannot lie, we have to realize that God cannot contradict Himself. This authority isn't as clear for tradition. Even Jesus condemned the traditions of the Jews who supplanted the teachings of the scriptures (Mark 7:6-9). The Bereans were praised for their critical eye towards the teachings of the apostles by comparing them to the scriptures as a test of truthfulness.

The primary concern I have is that while we know the scriptures are authoritative since they are from God, I don't know how to reconcile apparent contradictions from the church of Rome through tradition with what I see clearly presented with the Bible. The Bible doesn't change, but tradition can and does change over time. I know that no one but Christ is perfect and therefore all are prone to sin and deception, so I don't know how I can trust the traditions of men (even well-meaning and godly men) as equal in authority to scripture when those godly men are prone to err while the Bible isn't.

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But that aside, I certainly believe that the barrier between this earthly realm and that of Heaven is not impermeable. The Bible clearly illustrates that it is not, and there are instances of beings other than God - both angel and human - crossing that boundary to appear before living humans.

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I agree completely. I even pointed to the account of the spirit of Samuel interacting with Saul through the medium of Endor. However my point wasn't that the barrier is impermeable but that the dead do not receive the divine characteristic of omniscience (or omnipresence) when they die, and that characteristic would be necessary for a belief in prayers to the dead (Mary and the saints) to be practical. If Mary, for instance, cannot know or hear all of the prayers of those who seek her intercession, then those prayers are literally falling on deaf ears. However we do know that the Father hears all of our prayers as He is omniscient and omnipresent and we are told to pray to Him through Jesus Christ. No such command is given in relation to others receiving prayers.

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I certainly agree that the dead do not bear the burdens of the living, but that doesn't mean that they don't care about the living and wish to see us join them one day as part of God's family in Heaven. If not, that would seem quite strange, no? That they are with God in Heaven, a God that cares for us and loves us deeply. Yet those who are with him in Heaven have no concern for us at all?

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We are given a picture in Revelation (22:3) of the saints (all Christians who persevered in the Faith and went to paradise) are worshiping God and residing with Christ.

In his letter to the church in Philippi, Paul stressed that he sought to help them in this life, though his preference was to die and be with Christ (Phil. 1:19-26). He contrasted the two things: living and helping the Church and dying and being with Christ. Paul here seems to think that he won't be listening for the prayers of that same body and becoming an intercessor to Jesus on their behalf in death, but instead he would be enjoying the presence of Christ. If Paul believed he would be able to continue to help the Church by his proximity to Jesus in Heaven, this would've been a great time to call that out, but he didn't. His focus was on helping the Church through his ministry on earth, knowing that he would no longer be able to help them in his death.

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And FWIW, I don't think 1 Timothy 2:5 presents any sort of final authority on this topic. Taken out of its full context, it could seem that way. But Timothy is pointing out the truth that Christ is the sole mediator who paid the ransom for our sins. Nobody else paid that ransom, and therefore deserves to be the object of our worship. Even though he mentions prayer immediately before that statement, I find the relation between them to be fairly indirect.

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I agree that the passage is primarily focused on Christ's atonement through His sacrificial death on the cross, and in that way, He is our only mediator. My statement was crossing into two different but related issues. Prayer to Mary for her intercession would be one thing by itself (and it's the common theme of my response, along with prayers to others who are dead), but I also had in mind the teaching of Mary as Mediatrix ( RC Catechism). Prayers to her may be warranted if you also believe she is a mediator between God and man.

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And that's all intercessory prayers are; petitions to be prayed for just as we'd ask the living to pray for us. We can set aside all the silliness that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints. We simply hold them in very high regard as role models of the Christian faith. Do we find it strange or blasphemous when - in the home of our friend - they point out to us a picture of their grandfather and tell us how he was posthumously awarded the silver star for bravery during WW2, and that they admire him and hope to be as brave as him? Of course not. Why would that be strange or blasphemous?

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As I said previously, I don't believe there is any warrant to think that any of the dead hear our prayers. There are no grounds for believing that they are imbued with the divine characteristics of omniscience or omnipresence that would be required for them to hear all our prayers. There are commands to pray directly to God through Jesus our mediator who has given us access to the Father. Jesus is our high priest and he sympathizes with our weaknesses (Heb. 4:15-16)

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And in regards to prayers building up Christ's Church, I certainly agree with that. But in the end, the past, present, and future of Christ's Church will unite. I'd like to think that I've gotten to know Mary and saints a little bit before I meet them in Heaven one day (God willing).

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We will have eternity to get to know all of the saints (those who die in the Faith) and I'm looking forward to getting to know you better at the marriage feast of the Lord on that great day to come if not before.

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We will have eternity to get to know all of the saints (those who die in the Faith) and I'm looking forward to getting to know you better at the marriage feast of the Lord on that great day to come if not before.

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I think you made me cry a little bit

Godspeed, friend.

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Good grief it's like Catholics read enough of the Bible to be dangerous.

"What have I to do with thee Woman?"

"Call no man thy Father."

"Forbidding to marry..."

"Thou art Petros. Upon this PETRA I will build my church."

Just to list a few of your heresies.
Be Saved!

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Amen! They walk a very dangerous road for sure.

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again lack of information!

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Foomanchoo is one of the most - if the not the most - well-learned Christians on this site. His theology differs from ours, but he's certainly done his research.

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you are making a fool of yourself.

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And he is most certainly no fool.

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We don't believe that after death, everyone ceases to exist. The joy of the afterlife if something the Catholic believe and I think most Protestants do too. I am surprised you think it is all over when you die

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He made no such claim to the contrary.

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And in case you forget, it was us Catholics that started the Christian Faith

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While I believe in the truth of the Catholic faith like you, I also imagine it pains God and Christ to see us refer to ourselves as "us Catholics" at the exclusion of our brothers and sisters who may not share in full communion with the Catholic Church.

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.

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Jesus is Lord, not Mary, and Jesus does the will of His father, not His mother. She may ask anything but Jesus is not obligated to do anything just because she has asked.

Christ is our mediator, not Mary.

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Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD. Does anyone dispute this fact?
Yes Jesus will do whatever she asks as she told the servants, "Do whatever he tells you." She asks Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana and He complies because she is His mother. Jesus does the act, Mary does the asking. Did Jesus turn water into wine AFTER He told His mother Mary, "Woman, my time has not yet come"? Why did He change water into wine, if His time had not yet come? As you say, Jesus was not obligated to do anything His mother asked. Jesus performed a miracle BEFORE His time. Why did He do it? If it is ok for me to ask you to pray for me, then why is it not ok for me to ask the Mother of Christ to pray for me? She will give my intentions to Christ, her son. It worked at the wedding at Cana. Why is that included in the Bible if Christ intention is that we ignore His mother? Why was that included in the Bible?
Jesus first miracle was performed before it was His time to reveal Himself because His mother asked. If He was not obligated to perform this miracle, then why did He do it?
Jesus can not refuse His mother. Jesus honors His mother perfectly. You are witnessing perfect Honor to one's parent. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus still perfectly honors His mother, and He will for al time.

...so you are telling me that YOU can ask Jesus to do something, and He will do it, but His own mother asks Him and He may or may not do it? This makes NO sense at all.
You do not understand the role Mary had in bringing Christ into this world combined with Honoring your mother AND father as written in the 10 Commandments.
Do you accept ALL of the Bible or only part of it?
The Son of God is also the Son of Mary. Jesus will honor His mother AND father.
Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me, not my will but Thy will be done." He went through with the crucifixion anyway because it was the Will of God the Father. He performed His first miracle because His mother asked. He perfectly honored both parents in both cases. This is in the Bible for a reason.

Don't involve the blessed Mother Mary in this shite, please.

Heathen, take note, and repent. This life is not about do whatever and you're saved in the end, because you believe.

There will be consequences.

My two Catholic cents.

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what part of the Bible do you read that says Mary can do anything whatsoever to help people?

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The story of the Wedding at Cana is one of my favorite accounts in scripture. It has it all....drama, tension, crushing disappointment, fear, humiliation, followed by extreme relief, joy, and amazement. Jesus, his mother, and a few disciples took time to attend a wedding in the village of Cana. Jewish weddings were steeped in tradition and ritual. One of the Jewish customs was providing an extravagant feast for the guest.

Something went wrong at this wedding, somebody miscalculated the amount of wine needed. Yikes! They ran out of wine. Such a miscalculation would have been a great humiliation for the bride and groom. Not a good way to start off a marriage. They would always be remembered as the jewish couple who ran out of wine. Hey, I can well understand their dilemma. I gave away daughters in marriage, and I recall telling the wedding planners, "Whatever you do, DO NOT run out of beer and wine."

But I digress. Mary can see the distraught young couple when the steward tells them they're out of wine. Mary immediately springs into action. She turns to her son Jesus. The exchange went like this.....

"They have no more wine"

"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus
replied,"My time has not yet come".

His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells
you." (John 2:3-5)

In the details of the incident in the Bible Jesus doesn't argue with his mother. There is no momentary awkward silence or browbeating. Jesus simply does as his Mother asked. Jesus turns the water in the jugs to wine. Jesus then instructs the servants to draw a sample of the wine and bring it to the head steward. Wow! That must have been some good wine because the steward pulls the young couple aside and compliments them on their choice of wine. But he's curious. It's generally accepted practice that you serve the best wine first, then after the crowd is sufficiently buzzed on the good stuff and celebrating good, you give'um the cheaper wine. But the steward tells the young couple, "You have saved the best till now." (John 2:10)

So we Catholics believe Mary definitely has Our Lord's ear. She had it at Cana and we believe she has it now. So as HIS mother we occasionally ask her to convey our request to Him (her son). At least I do. We love our Blessed Mother, just like we love our earthly biological mothers. Mothers really have God's ear. Furthermore, married couples (a man and a woman) in a covenant marriage are co-creators with God.

It's that simple.

Youtube

A link with priest speaking of Mary's place in Christianity. There are several others discussing intercession with Saints but they are all long so I just posted this which is just under 7 minutes but the point is made in the first 5.