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re: May the Blessed Virgin Mary protect Our President TRUMP and the beautiful First Family!
Posted on 10/11/20 at 3:10 pm to obdobd918
Posted on 10/11/20 at 3:10 pm to obdobd918
quote:Mary is the human vessel that God used to bring His son into this world as a human. She is certainly blessed, but she is not divine. She's a dead human woman who was chosen by God to accomplish His purpose, like Noah, Abraham, David, and the various prophets.
Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD. Does anyone dispute this fact?
quote:The burden of proof is not on me to show that Jesus never listened to and obliged His mother. The burden of proof is on you to prove that He always does so. The entire premise of your statement is that Jesus must do the will of His mother as He must do the will of His Father, God. I believe the claim to be blasphemous as it equates the authority of Mary to that of God the Father.
Yes Jesus will do whatever she asks as she told the servants, "Do whatever he tells you." She asks Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana and He complies because she is His mother. Jesus does the act, Mary does the asking. Did Jesus turn water into wine AFTER He told His mother Mary, "Woman, my time has not yet come"? Why did He change water into wine, if His time had not yet come? As you say, Jesus was not obligated to do anything His mother asked. Jesus performed a miracle BEFORE His time. Why did He do it?
Mark 3:31-35 is an example where Jesus does not heed the call of Mary and His brothers. His ministry (the will of the Father) outweighed the requests of Mary and His brothers to interrupt His ministry.
In regards to the timing, it may indeed be true that Jesus was honoring Mary, but not simply because she asked Him to do something. Jesus was an adult and under no compulsion by the law to obey His earthly parents. Instead, His words to Her which seem to be more of a rebuke than anything else show the faith of Mary, as she told the servants to obey Jesus' words with the belief that He would show His glory as the son of God, and He did so.
The wedding at Cana began Jesus' ministry and it's clear that it was part of the Father's plan that it start there, regardless of Mary's wishes. The symbolism of the event is extraordinary and clearly premeditated. The common water being turned into uncommon wine (a sign of God's blessing); the water meant to ceremonially clean the outside of the guests is turned into a drink for their inside (like the outward signs of the old covenant being turned into the inward renewal by the Spirit); the wedding feast being on the third day, which is a day of renewal and rebirth; Jesus being asked to act in the role of the bridegroom in providing the wine being a sign of Jesus' role as the bridegroom providing the wine of blessing and the water of life to His bride; etc.
While many Catholics like to focus on the event as an evidence of Mary's authority over Jesus, it's actually the first display of Christ's authority as God, as evidenced by Mary's response to the servants where she told them to listen to Jesus, not herself.
quote:I already answered this previously, but the primary reason why you can ask me to pray for you is that we, as Christians, are commanded to pray for one another. Mary is dead and we have no commands to pray to or for the dead.
If it is ok for me to ask you to pray for me, then why is it not ok for me to ask the Mother of Christ to pray for me? She will give my intentions to Christ, her son. It worked at the wedding at Cana. Why is that included in the Bible if Christ intention is that we ignore His mother? Why was that included in the Bible?
One of the strongest arguments for why we shouldn't pray to Mary outside of the lack of scriptural support for why we should is that there is no indication that she nor anyone else who dies is imbued with divine characteristics of omniscience or omnipresence. This is important because it means that if Mary lacks these qualities, we have no confidence that it is even possible for her to receive all of our prayers, understand them, and pass them along. Mary is not divine.
quote:Jesus said that His hour had not come, which was a reference to His crucifixion. That phrase is mentioned several times, including when Jesus' brothers later told Christ to show that He was the messiah publicly. That didn't mean He was prohibited from performing miracles, only that He wasn't trying to draw public attention to Himself as the messiah as the response would lead to His arrest and death, which the time had not yet come. It's why Jesus performed the miracle in secret, having the headwaiter receive and deliver the wine without knowing where it came from. Jesus didn't want to "out" Himself at that time. He wasn't performing miracles against His own will at the request of His mother; He performed the miracle at the request of His Father, as it was the beginning of His ministry that would culminate in His death and salvation for His people.
Jesus first miracle was performed before it was His time to reveal Himself because His mother asked. If He was not obligated to perform this miracle, then why did He do it?
quote:He most certainly can and He did elsewhere, as I said already. Jesus was under no legal obligation to obey all that His mother asked of Him and He had an authority as God that she lacked.
Jesus can not refuse His mother.
quote:Jesus certainly honored His mother, but not at the expense of His Father. Jesus' ministry was the Father's will. Placating guests to prevent dishonor of the bridegroom (who had the responsibility of providing sufficient wine for the guests) was her will. I also find it rather blasphemous to equate the will of the Father with that of Mary, as if she were equal in authority with God the Father.
Jesus honors His mother perfectly. You are witnessing perfect Honor to one's parent. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus still perfectly honors His mother, and He will for al time.
You have to remember that the plan for salvation was ordained by the godhead (Father, Son, and Spirit -- not Mary) from the beginning, and Jesus ministry and sacrifice was to accomplish the will of the Father long before Mary was even born. Jesus had to obey the will of God the Father out of obligation to the law as well as out of a unity with the Father that He did not have with Mary. There is no moral obligation for Jesus as an adult to do the will of Mary.
quote:You're right. That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense because I don't believe that Jesus is compelled to do anything that I ask of Him. He simply isn't obligated to do anything that is outside of the will of the Father.
...so you are telling me that YOU can ask Jesus to do something, and He will do it, but His own mother asks Him and He may or may not do it? This makes NO sense at all.
quote:Her role was a vessel to bring Jesus into the world. That didn't mean He had to do everything she said at all times after He was an adult. Recall that even when He was a child, He left His parents (which made them worry) because He was doing the will of His Father. The law (10 commandments) also doesn't require total obedience to parents, either when they ask you to sin, or when you grow up and leave their household.
You do not understand the role Mary had in bringing Christ into this world combined with Honoring your mother AND father as written in the 10 Commandments.
quote:I provided why it's in the Bible, and it wasn't to show total and complete submission to the will of Mary.
Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me, not my will but Thy will be done." He went through with the crucifixion anyway because it was the Will of God the Father. He performed His first miracle because His mother asked. He perfectly honored both parents in both cases. This is in the Bible for a reason.
2
Posted on 10/11/20 at 3:42 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
She is certainly blessed, but she is not divine.
I don’t know of people who believed she was divine, but she is alive now and in heaven. Early Christians held her in the same regard going back to the 2nd century just like Catholics and Orthodox Christians do today. We pray to God, not to Mary. We do at times ask Mary to also pray for us. We don’t look at Mary or the Saints as equal to God
Posted on 10/11/20 at 3:54 pm to FooManChoo
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
And all is done through Christ Jesus!
And all is done through Christ Jesus!
Posted on 10/11/20 at 10:48 pm to windshieldman
quote:My point in saying she isn't divine is because she's being ascribed (assumed, really) divine characteristics when she is believed to receive our prayers at all times and from all places. This and the fact that the church of Rome officially views her as a Mediatrix, co-redeemer with Christ and was free from original sin, she has been given a savior-like role that only belongs to God's son. Not only that, I'm also told that Jesus must listen to her simply because she was His earthly mother. Jesus said He must do the will of His heavenly Father. He never said He must do the will of His earthly mother, yet she is being equated with God in status simply because (as it is argued) that there is one passage that says that Jesus did what she requested.
I don’t know of people who believed she was divine
quote:Is she alive in Heaven? Or is her soul in Heaven?
but she is alive now and in heaven.
The bodily assumption of Mary became an official doctrine in 1950 based on Papal decree. So for nearly 2,000 years, it was not taught dogmatically that Mary's living body was taken up into Heaven. In fact the first historical evidence for anything but a standard death of Mary was about 500 years after she would have lived and it was speculation about the end of her life. There were some gnostic writings about her but nothing from the apostolic age about what happened to her.
This is the danger of papal authority with tradition: you can have no objective basis for a particular theological truth decreed as such based on traditions that have developed over time. If you don't have the never-changing scriptures to ground your doctrines, you can invent just about any doctrine you want.
quote:Not at all. She has been esteemed as blessed as being chosen by God to be the vessel that He used for the incarnation of Jesus, but the doctrines about Mary being basically deified didn't come around for a long time. The first century Christians would have thought it blasphemous that she is referred to as a mediator and a redeemer of mankind alongside Jesus, and as I just mentioned, they wouldn't have even known what you were talking about if you said her body was taken up to Heaven like Jesus.
Early Christians held her in the same regard going back to the 2nd century just like Catholics and Orthodox Christians do today.
quote:The "Hail Mary" is a prayer addressed to Mary, herself.
We pray to God, not to Mary. We do at times ask Mary to also pray for us.
quote:The doctrine of Rome suggests otherwise, at least in certain respects. Her veneration had become so extreme over the past 2,000 years that she has been given titles and characteristics that had traditionally been reserved to the son of God, Himself. Even the belief that Mary had to be born without stain of original sin doesn't make logical sense. If she had to be born without the stain of sin in order to be the mother of God, wouldn't her mother have had to be born without the stain of original sin, and her mother, and her mother, etc.? Also, these doctrines were invented to venerate Mary further and raise her up to the same status as Jesus in terms of being sinless and a co-redeemer. She said, herself, that God was her savior (Luke 1:47), so it's completely unnecessary and anti-biblical.
We don’t look at Mary or the Saints as equal to God
Posted on 10/11/20 at 10:56 pm to tankyank13
quote:I agree with you completely. Those who died in the Faith are part of the one body of Jesus Christ, also called the Church universal, however I disagree with your application towards prayer. It's not a matter of concern for others (which I highly doubt that is much concern in heaven, given that sin is removed and people's inclinations are driven to worship God and His Son Jesus rather than dwell on the cares of the living) but a lack of divine characteristics as well as a lack of divine warrant through the scriptures that the dead intercede for the living.
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
And all is done through Christ Jesus!
We are given commands for the living to pray for the living, but there is no such mandate for the living to pray for the dead for the dead to pray for the living. And as I've said multiple times now, in order for the dead to pray (for specific requests) for the living, they have to be able to hear the prayers of the living, which would require omniscience or omnipresence that belongs only to God.
Posted on 10/11/20 at 11:08 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
James, Joseph, Jude & Simon were the sibling brothers of Jesus. And He had multiple unnamed sisters as well.
Mary took a rod at least 6 different times, so why is she still considered a virgin?
.
Mary took a rod at least 6 different times, so why is she still considered a virgin?
.
This post was edited on 10/11/20 at 11:10 pm
Posted on 10/11/20 at 11:43 pm to LSUFreek
Don’t forget to pray in the spirit guys!!
praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints
God bless you all, in Jesus name, Amen
praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints
God bless you all, in Jesus name, Amen
Posted on 10/12/20 at 1:04 am to KCT
quote:
May the Blessed Virgin Mary protect Our President TRUMP and the beautiful First Family! by KCT
Is she a frickin God?
Posted on 10/12/20 at 1:42 am to Thunder
Posted on 10/12/20 at 12:59 pm to FooManChoo
growing up as a catholic I never could wrap my head around why I needed to confess my sins to a priest instead of just asking God for forgiveness.
As a former catholic I have formulated my own "opinion" based upon what I know about this offshoot of Christianity that they (Catholics) have made many absurd interpretations and quite frankly unfounded additions to the bible that have zero basis in what the bible actually says.
-Purgatory
-Praying to Mary and so-called "saints" for different reasons...if you lost something pray to this saint....if you need financial help pray to this saint....etc
- don't die without confessing (to a priest) a "mortal sin" or you will not make it to heaven
- Confess you sins to a mortal man to make sure you are forgiven of your sins....wrong
- And honestly the only thing you learn in a catholic mass is how to say ritualistic prayers...i.e. hail Mary, the Our father etc...you can always gage when mass will end, shortly after taking the Eucharist
And something I would like to share and this is not a direct lie from the Catholic religion, however this was taught to me as a young child in catechism; I had one of my teachers tell us that Jesus was exactly 6 foot tall and that no other man has ever been exactly 6 foot tall. The sad thing is at the time (probably 7 or 8 years old) I absolutely believed her and her nonsense.
The catholic religion is probably one of the most corrupt religions out there btw
As a former catholic I have formulated my own "opinion" based upon what I know about this offshoot of Christianity that they (Catholics) have made many absurd interpretations and quite frankly unfounded additions to the bible that have zero basis in what the bible actually says.
-Purgatory
-Praying to Mary and so-called "saints" for different reasons...if you lost something pray to this saint....if you need financial help pray to this saint....etc
- don't die without confessing (to a priest) a "mortal sin" or you will not make it to heaven
- Confess you sins to a mortal man to make sure you are forgiven of your sins....wrong
- And honestly the only thing you learn in a catholic mass is how to say ritualistic prayers...i.e. hail Mary, the Our father etc...you can always gage when mass will end, shortly after taking the Eucharist
And something I would like to share and this is not a direct lie from the Catholic religion, however this was taught to me as a young child in catechism; I had one of my teachers tell us that Jesus was exactly 6 foot tall and that no other man has ever been exactly 6 foot tall. The sad thing is at the time (probably 7 or 8 years old) I absolutely believed her and her nonsense.
The catholic religion is probably one of the most corrupt religions out there btw
Posted on 10/12/20 at 1:10 pm to windshieldman
quote:
We pray to God, not to Mary. We do at times ask Mary to also pray for us. We don’t look at Mary or the Saints as equal to God
I agree that most Catholics feel the same (the ones I know). However, we ARE in a thread asking for Mary to protect Trump... that sounds a lot like praying to her.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 1:13 pm to RBWilliams8
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Sounds like a prayer to Mary to me.
Sounds like a prayer to Mary to me.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 1:53 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Sounds like a prayer to Mary to me.
Hello again friend
I'm just stopping by to separate the thread regarding the semantics of "praying to." It keeps getting tangled up in this thread.
There is a difference (which I hope Catholics understand and acknowledge) between "praying to" and "praying to". Which I know sounds silly, but there is a legitimate distinction to be made.
When the claim is made that Catholics pray to Mary, in that context "pray to" simply refers to the means of establishing a spiritual communication with her; just like if we wanted to establish a communication with a living friend or family member, we'd give them a call or write them a letter.
It would disingenuous - or intellectually lazy (of which I believe you to be neither) to claim that Catholics "pray to" Mary in the same sense that a Christian would pray to God. When we pray to God, we know we are addressing the Alpha and Omega and therefore conduct our prayers accordingly.
For example, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done...give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses...deliver us from evil."
Whereas, in the Hail Mary, we simply ask "pray for us sinners." Albeit, we do this in a very "lofty" manner which could be mistaken for more than it really is.
Now, we have different opinions regarding the spiritual and metaphysical ties between the earthly realm and that of Heaven which brings into question whether Mary can truly "hear" our prayers, and even if she could, are those prayers to her necessary. I won't delve into that here. I don't have that much time right now
But it would be a fun conversation someday.
Like I said, I just wanted to clear up that semantic issue.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:21 pm to UGATiger26
quote:Greetings
Hello again friend
quote:Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting what Catholics are taught and believe. I'm not a Catholic but have studied it a bit and have friends that are intimately familiar with it so I'm not completely ignorant, though I clearly don't have all the nuance as some might who have grown up in Catholicism and/or are practicing Catholics.
I'm just stopping by to separate the thread regarding the semantics of "praying to." It keeps getting tangled up in this thread.
There is a difference (which I hope Catholics understand and acknowledge) between "praying to" and "praying to". Which I know sounds silly, but there is a legitimate distinction to be made.
When the claim is made that Catholics pray to Mary, in that context "pray to," simply refers to the means of establishing a spiritual communication with her; just like if we wanted to establish a communication with a living friend or family member, we'd give them a call or write them a letter.
It would disingenuous - or intellectually lazy (of which I believe you to be neither) to claim that Catholics "pray to" Mary in the same sense that a Christian would pray to God. When we pray to God, we know we are addressing the Alpha and Omega and therefore conduct our prayers accordingly.
For example, in the Lord's Prayer, we speak "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done...give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses...deliver us from evil."
Whereas, in the Hail Mary, we simply ask "pray for us sinners." Albeit, we do this in a very "lofty" manner which could be mistaken for more than it really is.
That said, what you described sounds like a difference without distinction. Simply put, prayer is communication. When we pray to God the Father, we are addressing our thoughts and words to Him. When a prayer is made to Mary and the saints, those are thoughts and words addressed to them. So in that regard, praying to Mary is the same as praying to God.
But your point is understood: it's not the act of prayer that differentiates but the belief about the one whom you pray to that does. When you pray to Mary, you realize that she isn't God, and you are addressing her like you would talk to a friend, asking for their prayers of intercession, rather than talking to creator of the universe and asking that His will be done.
Perhaps the issue is with the language, but when a professing Catholic says that they don't pray to Mary, that's simply not true. Perhaps they mean what you mean, that they aren't deifying Mary and putting her on the same level as the Father, but that differentiation isn't being made as clearly by others as you have made it (thank you for that).
I think where things get off kilter is that prayer is religious by nature and is typically associated with praying to the gods, or God more specifically. When prayers are made to the dead or to those no longer of this world who aren't God, it's easy to associate the commonalities of prayer to those instances. It's one of the reasons why I don't think anyone should be praying to anyone else other than to the godhead. It creates more confusion and can even lead people to think differently about the object of their prayers than they probably should.
quote:I'd like to hear your thoughts on that some time as you seem to take this seriously and have good things to say.
Now, we have different opinions regarding the spiritual and metaphysical ties between the earthly realm and that of Heaven which brings into question whether Mary can truly "hear" our prayers, and even if she could, are those prayers to her necessary. I won't delve into that here. I don't have that much time right now
But it would be a fun conversation someday.
quote:Thanks again
Like I said, I just wanted to clear up that semantic issue.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:22 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
to claim that Catholics "pray to" Mary in the same sense that a Christian would pray to God
Not sure if this was a mistake on your part or just an oversight but you do realize that the catholic religion is a Christian religion right? Although sometimes I think many Catholics think Catholicism is a sole region or belief system.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 2:42 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:31 pm to CajunTiger78
quote:I assumed he meant like a generic Christian and not that Catholics were something different.
Not sure if this was a mistake on your part or just an oversight but you do realize that the catholic religion is a Christian religion right? Although sometimes I think many Catholics thing Catholicism is a sole region or belief system
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:41 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I assumed he meant like a generic Christian and not that Catholics were something different.
More than likely.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:16 pm to CajunTiger78
quote:
I assumed he meant like a generic Christian and not that Catholics were something different.
More than likely.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:29 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That said, what you described sounds like a difference without distinction. Simply put, prayer is communication. When we pray to God the Father, we are addressing our thoughts and words to Him. When a prayer is made to Mary and the saints, those are thoughts and words addressed to them. So in that regard, praying to Mary is the same as praying to God.
True, and fair enough. As if it weren't obvious enough from my "'praying to' vs. 'praying to'" preface
, I don't really have a rhetorical rebuttal, but I also don't need one as you so helpfully illustrated in your next two paragraphs. quote:
But your point is understood: it's not the act of prayer that differentiates but the belief about the one whom you pray to that does. When you pray to Mary, you realize that she isn't God, and you are addressing her like you would talk to a friend, asking for their prayers of intercession, rather than talking to creator of the universe and asking that His will be done.
Yes, exactly. Thank you for saying it better than me.
quote:
Perhaps the issue is with the language, but when a professing Catholic says that they don't pray to Mary, that's simply not true. Perhaps they mean what you mean, that they aren't deifying Mary and putting her on the same level as the Father, but that differentiation isn't being made as clearly by others as you have made it (thank you for that).
Correct, we certainly do pray to Mary. But like you said, the difference lies in the purpose and direction of that prayer. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are above all else and we should never allow our adoration of Mary and the saints to supersede that pivotal and essential truth.
I believe the Nicene Creed sums it all up quite well.
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
quote:
I think where things get off kilter is that prayer is religious by nature and is typically associated with praying to the gods, or God more specifically. When prayers are made to the dead or to those no longer of this world who aren't God, it's easy to associate the commonalities of prayer to those instances.
I agree...which is what I was getting at when I added my disclaimer that I would hope Catholics understand and acknowledge that distinction.
quote:
I'd like to hear your thoughts on that some time as you seem to take this seriously and have good things to say.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 3:36 pm
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