re: Lincoln on Lincoln

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In the long run he did the south a favor, as an independent confederacy was unsustainable long term without the northern infrastructure.

I have to disagree. Along with the benefits I listed in my post above, the South had 1/3 of the railroads in the country.

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Built and maintained by what we now call contractors. Contractors who left the south when hostilities were commenced. The south was antithetical to free labor. Hard to do much like that.

"The railroads therefore began to run into difficulties very quickly. They did not have the parts to replace worn out equipment. The Southern railroads, before the war, had imported iron from England. Once the war began, the Union blockade of the Atlantic and Gulf ports was very effective in shutting off that supply. Locomotives and tracks began to wear out. By 1863 a quarter of the South's locomotives needed repairs and the speed of train travel in the South had dropped to only 10 miles an hour (from 25 miles an hour in 1861).

Fuel was a problem as well. Southern locomotives were fueled by wood--a great deal of it. As the Confederate government pulled skilled railroad employees out of their civilian jobs and into the military, the railroad companies became badly understaffed. Replenishing the woodyards at the depots soon became impossible. Train crews eventually took to stopping along their route to chop and load wood as it was needed.

Accidents also wrecked a lot of equipment. Because telegraph communication was sporadic at best, railroad crews were often unaware of broken rails and collapsed bridges. Cattle on the tracks caused accidents, sparks from the locomotives' wood fires burned cars, and boilers exploded. Track, too, became a problem, and crossties, spikes, and track were taken from the less important railroad lines and used on the major lines. Crossties became rotten, and rails broke (the line from Nashville to Chattanooga had 1,200 broken rails in 1862). Union troops, as they moved South, sabotaged the rails by pulling them up, heating them until they could bend, and wrapping them around tree trunks to make what were called Sherman's Neckties. The Union army also burned bridges and destroyed tunnels and captured as much railroad equipment as they could--their greatest catch was in 1863 when General Joseph E. Johnston abandoned Jackson, Mississippi, leaving 90 locomotives and hundreds of railroad cars behind."

LINK

During the war 17,000 miles of telegraph lines were laid in the north.

In the south, 500 miles of telegraph lines were laid during the war.

There was not a single facility in the so-called CSA where a locomotive could be constructed.

"Rarely discussed or acknowledged is that 300,000 southern whites also joined the Union army. Nearly a quarter of all Union armed forces, nearly one half million, actually came from the South. In the border states, 200,000 whites joined the Union army; only 90,000 joined the Confederate army. Soldiers from the border states comprised only ten percent of the Confederate army; but if they had contributed 37 percent, rebel ranks would have included 250,000 more soldiers. But, what actually happened, William Freehling writes in South vs. South, is that “Another 100,000 Middle South whites enlisted in Union ranks. Those 300,000 southern white Unionist sharp-shooters replaced every Union casualty in the first two years of the war.”

Many of these men had deserted the Confederate army. But many more deserters had simply wearied of war, and were in hiding near their homes. By 1864, two-thirds of the Confederate Army was absent with or without leave. So, the story of a unified Confederacy bravely fighting off invading Yankees is a damnable myth. The Confederacy was deeply riven by class divisions, with poor whites almost as hostile to slave holders as slaves were. The truth was that large parts of the South ended up warring against the Confederacy. Within one year of the outbreak of the war, there were entire counties and areas of the South that had broken free of control by either state or Confederate officials. As more deserters came home to hide, they banded together in self defense, and more areas slipped out of Confederate control. In many areas, Confederate officials, especially military conscription officers, were shot on sight, or hunted down and ambushed. The Confederacy, in no small degree, defeated itself".

LINK

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The overwhelming majority of the south was dead arse broke. The wealth inequality was far greater than what we see today.

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And the wealthy were land poor and slave poor. Freeing the slaves ended their prosperity.

It is no accident that there was no professional baseball team in the south for 100 after pro baseball appeared in the north.

From a newsgroup:

"In point of fact, the long-standing Federal sugar import tariff imposed to protect Louisiana sugar growers was extensively debated at the Montgomery Convention and, in spite the highly-touted Confederate devotion to free trade principles, was retained in the Confederacy through out the ACW.

Additionally, the Confederacy placed tariffs on exports, including a duty on exported cotton. I repeat here for emphasis --- tariffs on Southern cotton exports were prohibited by the US Constitution. So much for high secessionist principles concerning tariffs! They talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk, as goes the modern formula for hypocrisy.

It is humorous to note that the prewar Federal iron import tariff, so despised by Secessionist firebrands, was continued by the Confederacy after some of the realities of fiscal and industrial policy set in. On 16 February 1861 the Provisional Confederate Congress blithely passed a bill providing for free import of railway iron. A month later, however, fiscal realities set in and an ad valorem import tax was imposed on such goods at the rate of 15% --- a rate confirmed in the Confederate Tariff Act of 21 May 1861.

For further details, see Robert C. Black's THE RAILROADS OF THE CONFEDERACY (Chapel Hill, NC: U. of NC Press, 1998)."

I was going down memory lane and look what I found:

This is what I was talking about yesterday. We've got bigger problems than what A. Lincoln was doing in 1861:
"A federal court has authority to decide whether Jose Padilla, a former Chicago gang member accused of plotting with terrorists to detonate a radioactive "dirty" bomb, was properly detained as an enemy combatant, a judge ruled Wednesday.

Padilla has been barred from meeting with lawyers since his arrest May 8. U.S. District Judge Michael Mukasey said Wednesday that Padilla may meet with them now.

The ruling was a blow to the government, which had argued that Padilla, a U.S. citizen, had no right to challenge its actions in court because he was detained as an "enemy combatant."

Padilla was arrested on a material witness warrant issued by a grand jury and secretly held in a federal jail. He has been in a Navy brig since he was declared an "enemy combatant" in June and transferred to the control of the U.S. military. The government says the "enemy combatant" declaration allows it to hold him without formal criminal charges.

The government said Padilla twice met with senior al-Qaida operatives in Pakistan in March and discussed a plot to detonate a radiological weapon in the United States.

A spokesman for U.S. Attorney James B. Comey had no immediate comment. Lawyers for Padilla did not immediately return a telephone message for comment."

Padilla is a citizen of the good ol' USA. And unless I missed it, the presnt police chief of Baltimore is not blowing up bridges.

Walt

1,410 posted on 12/4/2002, 11:38:41 AM by WhiskeyPapa

What are you talking about, what you expressed is sanskrit.

Gary Smith, University of Dundee, Scottish history professor's review includes:
By highlighting disunion in the southern states, Freehling’s work convincingly shows how the failure of all southerners to commit to the Confederate cause eventually led to its downfall. Where the work shines is in its discussion of the Border States, Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri. As slave states within the Union their allegiance was crucial to the war effort, the prospect of their secession dictating Lincoln’s slave policy for the first years of war. Despite this, these states have been frustratingly underdeveloped by historians. This work helps to redress the balance by highlighting how, far from being a unified region, the border south, upper south and lower south all had their own distinct characters, and differing levels of attachment to the Confederate cause.

So between Smith's review and your excerpts we know that the "Southern" states you are referring to were not in the southern part of the nation. They were Union states where slavery was legal. Most of their inhabitants fought for the Union. Were they volunteers or conscripts? We can safely assume that the quoted 90,000 volunteered for Confederate service since the CSA couldn't conscript them. Compared to 100,000 Middle South that enlisted in the Union Armies.

So 90,000 Union state citizens joined the CSA and 100,000 Confederate citizens joined the USA. With the general poor state of record keeping of this time, I declare a wash at worse. But let's analyse this.
1- CSA records were lost, burned, and misplaced much more than USA records. Many enlistments from boarder states in CSA would be unavailable compared to USA ones. CSA enlisted will therefore be undercounted in scholarly research.
2- USA veterans have an inherently higher tendency to correct lost records since they could receive veteran benefits. CSA veterans did not receive benefits since the CSA was defunct. And CSA veterans could not vote under reconstruction. A CSA veteran's service record was useless at best and detrimental at worse.
3- While internal immigration within America was overwhelming westward, more movement from the higher populated North moved south than the other way around. How many of these Southern whites were really Yankees going home to fight for their birth states. History is replete with Southerners and Northerners returning to the land of their birth.

The American Civil War is often cited as a war were brother fought brother, be they Northerners, Southerners, or Europeans. Nothing shocking in your argument. (Aside, did you research my claim that Yankee ship yards, merchants, and financiers were major players in the transatlantic slave trade through the 1850s?).

Desertion was extremely common in both armies just like death from disease. Because of poor records many men joining the blue and/or grey would enlist for the signing bonus, desert, and repeat. Southern soldiers being closer to home would often go awol to care for their families, and they would then rejoin their unit for battle. As the war progressed the civilians plight became more desperate and the defeated Southerners became more demoralized. Louisiana Tiger units were renowned for discipline problems, desertion, and fierce fighting.

Final argument. If the South was such a divided basket case, why did it take so long for a united Northern population of 21 million to subdue a white Southern population of 5.5 million? Especially considering that the South was separated from its manufacturing base in England. And how did the Southern-Southern sharp-shooters bury so many more Yankees than the Union-Southern sharp-shooters?

I know. I'm just a dumb-arse neo-reb. And everything Southern was bad, and everything Union was good. I wonder if you noticed the implication that you might be a neo-Yankee?

Wow WiskeyPapa you're a cut and past machine! Now I realize you have many posters to respond to, but maybe we can take a break on new tangential arguments!

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From a newsgroup: "In point of fact, the long-standing Federal sugar import tariff imposed to protect Louisiana sugar growers was extensively debated at the Montgomery Convention and, in spite the highly-touted Confederate devotion to free trade principles, was retained in the Confederacy through out the ACW

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Sugar was the human equivalent of oil for the 19th century. Humans burn calories to work long hard hours. Sugar was easy to grow and transport. Europe would fight savage wars just to control a sugar island. Vast wealth was transferred from sugar consumers to producers. The only area to produce sugar in continental US was Louisiana and much smaller in Florida. However the Louisiana climate can only produce 1 harvest per year compared to 2 in the sugar islands. To be profitable, protective tariffs and subsidies were required. As a result, Louisiana was a traditional Whig state. This would be a key aspect of Louisiana joining the CSA and New Orleans would be critical for long term CSA economic and military power.

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Additionally, the Confederacy placed tariffs on exports, including a duty on exported cotton. I repeat here for emphasis --- tariffs on Southern cotton exports were prohibited by the US Constitution. So much for high secessionist principles concerning tariffs! They talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk, as goes the modern formula for hypocrisy.

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One must remember that the CSA was in a war of survival very quickly. The government was not as effective as the USA in financing the war but was vastly superior to the Continental Congress. Money had to be raised to supply vast armies to compete with the Union. War time taxes have been used to finance military necessities for thousands of years. Again accusations of hypocrisy reflect your anti Confederate bias just like calling those who disagree with you neo-rebs.

As stated previously, my life is better because my Confederate ancestors were defeated. Theirs not so much. The CSA was both good and bad. I am not protecting her honor, I am arguing against false historical suppositions. A proper recognition of admirable Southern traits and vile Southern traits is important for true understanding.

Now big question. Are you just trolling a Southern board, or is there true animosity for all things Confederate or Southern?

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So 90,000 Union state citizens joined the CSA and 100,000 Confederate citizens joined the USA.

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There were no confederate citizens because there was no confederacy. Ever.

"Whereas the laws of the United States have been for some time past, and now are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law..."

4/15/61

That is all the so-called CSA ever was - "combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings..."

And the figure given for enlistees was 300,000 not 100,000.

According to the Militia Act of May 2, 1792, as amended Feb 28, 1795, Sec. 2:

"And it be further enacted, That whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States to call forth the militia of such state to suppress such combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. And if the militia of a state, where such combinations may happen, shall refuse, or be insufficient to suppress the same, it shall be lawful for the President, if the legislatures of the United States be not in session, to call forth and employ such numbers of the militia of any other state or states most convenient thereto, as may be necessary, and the use of militia, so to be called forth, may be continued, if necessary, until the expiration of thirty days after the commencement of the ensuing session."

The Militia Act was passed because President Washington pushed it.

"Experience has taught us, that men will not adopt & carry into execution, measures the best calculated for their own good without a coercive power. I do not conceive we can exist long as a nation, without having lodged somewhere a power which will pervade the whole Union in as energetic a manner, as the authority of the different state governments extends over the several States. To be fearful of vesting Congress, constituted as that body is, with ample authorities for national purposes, appears to me the very climax of popular absurdity and madness."

--George Washington to John Jay, August 19, 1786

How did Washington's image wind up on the great seal of the so-called CSA, do you think?



Doesn't make much sense, does it?