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Lincoln on Lincoln

Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:15 am
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:15 am
Lincoln on secession:

"What is now combatted, is the position that secession is consistent with the Constitution—is lawful, and peaceful. It is not contended that there is any express law for it; and nothing should ever be implied as law, which leads to unjust, or absurd consequences. The nation purchased, with money, the countries out of which several of these States were formed. Is it just that they shall go off without leave, and without refunding? The nation paid very large sums, (in the aggregate, I believe, nearly a hundred millions) to relieve Florida of the aboriginal tribes. Is it just that she shall now be off without consent, or without making any return? The nation is now in debt for money applied to the benefit of these so-called seceding States, in common with the rest. Is it just, either that creditors shall go unpaid, or the remaining States pay the whole? A part of the present national debt was contracted to pay the old debts of Texas. Is it just that she shall leave, and pay no part of this herself?

Again, if one State may secede, so may another; and when all shall have seceded, none is left to pay the debts. Is this quite just to creditors? Did we notify them of this sage view of ours, when we borrowed their money? If we now recognize this doctrine, by allowing the seceders to go in peace, it is difficult to see what we can do, if others choose to go, or to extort terms upon which they will promise to remain."

7/4/61

I have been shown a letter on this subject, supposed to be an able one, in which the writer expresses regret that my mind has not seemed to be definitely fixed on the question whether the seceding States, so called, are in the Union or out of it. It would perhaps, add astonishment to his regret, were he to learn that since I have found professed Union men endeavoring to make that question, I have purposely forborne any public expression upon it. As appears to me that question has not been, nor yet is, a practically material one, and that any discussion of it, while it thus remains practically immaterial, could have no effect other than the mischievous one of dividing our friends. As yet, whatever it may hereafter become, that question is bad, as the basis of a controversy, and good for nothing at all--a merely pernicious abstraction."

4/11/65



Lincoln on Slavery:

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling."

4/4/64

Lincoln on blacks:

"There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people, to the idea of an indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races; and Judge Douglas evidently is basing his chief hope, upon the chances of being able to appropriate the benefit of this disgust to himself. If he can, by much drumming and repeating, fasten the odium of that idea upon his adversaries, he thinks he can struggle through the storm. He therefore clings to this hope, as a drowning man to the last plank. He makes an occasion for lugging it in from the opposition to the Dred Scott decision. He finds the Republicans insisting that the Declaration of Independence includes ALL men, black as well as white; and forthwith he boldly denies that it includes negroes at all, and proceeds to argue gravely that all who contend it does, do so only because they want to vote, and eat, and sleep, and marry with negroes! He will have it that they cannot be consistent else. Now I protest against that counterfeit logic which concludes that, because I do not want a black woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone. In some respects she certainly is not my equal; but in her natural right to eat the bread she earns with her own hands without asking leave of any one else, she is my equal, and the equal of all others.

6/26/57

" It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers. "

4/11/65

Lincoln on History:

“The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with the occasion. …fellow citizens, we cannot escape history…The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation. We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union…In giving freedom to the slave, we ensure freedom to the free–honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last, best hope of earth.”

12/1/62

Lincoln on Douglass:

"But as soon as President Lincoln saw me I was relieved of all embarrassment. In a loud voice, so that all could hear, and looking toward me, he said, “And here comes my friend, Frederick Douglass!” [Good! Good!] I had some trouble in getting through the crowd of elegantly dressed people to Mr. Lincoln.

When I did succeed, and shook hands with him, he detained me and said, “Douglass, I saw you in the crowd today, listening to my inaugural address. How did you like it?” I replied, “Mr. Lincoln, I must not stop to talk now. Thousands are here, wishing to shake your hand.” But he said, “You must stop. There is no man in the United States whose opinion I value more than yours. How did you like it?” [Applause.] I said, “Mr. Lincoln, it was a sacred effort,” and passed on, amid some smiles, much astonishment and some frowns. And this was the last time that I heard the voice and saw the face and form of honest Abraham Lincoln."

3/4/65

Douglass on Lincoln:

"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined."

4/14/76






Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:18 am to
A bunch of neo-rebs will soon descend to defend succession.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
67692 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:30 am to
quote:

I do not want a black woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone.


It's a bit cryptic, but he seems to not be a fan of miscegenation. Was he against it or for it?
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:48 am to
I don't know that Lincoln is on the record anywhere about racial inter marriage. One of the crafty things he did before the war was to take the middle ground as much as possible.

The way he won the 1860 nomination was to be everyone's second choice. He defeated 4 more qualified candudates for the nomination.
Posted by SirWinston
PNW
Member since Jul 2014
81376 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:52 am to
Everybody was against interracial marriage until at least 1920 and then it was like 99% against. Some folks still don't really like it too much, truth be told
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98490 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:56 am to
quote:

defend succession


quote:

succession




No need to defend something that was (and to this day, remains) completely legal under the Constitution.
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
22331 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 6:58 am to
“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world”.
Abraham Lincoln – U.S. Congress, 1847
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
67692 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:03 am to
quote:

Again, if one State may secede, so may another; and when all shall have seceded, none is left to pay the debts.



from this, it doesn't look like he was against secession in any form, but only secession that does not take into account the debt and payment of the seceding state.

It seems that he might have been OK with an orderly secession that covers this, like the European Union has available for its members.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:24 am to
Lincoln in that 1847 speech is referring to revolution, which by definition is outside the law.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:25 am to
Under our system Lincoln clearly thought that unilateral state secession was outside the law - was absurd and unjust.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
67692 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:31 am to
quote:

Under our system


Well yes, the Civil War exposed a flaw in our system.

As good as the founders were, they missed this.
The way they have it, the only way to get divorced is to kill your spouse. That's a bit extreme and if they had thought about it, I doubt they would be satisfied with that.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:37 am to
The Founding Fathers had to finesse the idea of a strong govenment. People remembered the Brits.

But one stated purpose of the Constitution is to perfect the Union.

That really can't be construed as anything less than perpetual.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
67692 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:54 am to
quote:

That really can't be construed as anything less than perpetual.


Maybe, but it's become a much larger country and very diverse now. That's a different element than they were dealing with.

Many diverse people in proximity with each other is bound to increase pressure and tension.

Best to have a pressure release system short of an outright explosion.
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
13494 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 7:55 am to
quote:

A bunch of neo-rebs will soon descend to defend succession.

13 independent colonies allied to separate from there rightful union, with England, during the Revolution. They voluntarily united under The Articles of Confederation. They voluntarily cast away the Articles like used tissue paper. Starting to notice precedent for dissolving unification here? They then voluntarily joined a new union under The Constitution.

Where in the Constitution goes it declare the Union indivisible in 1860? Where does it say that once a state voluntarily joins it cannot leave?

And then we have this from another critically important American document:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

The Declaration of Independence proclaimed the right of a people to "dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another".

And then finally we have the glorious Yankees protecting the indivisible Union from succession recognizing the rights of western Virginians to succeed from Virginia!

Now I recognize that I'm just a dumb-arsed neo-reb, but it appears to me that the Union is indivisible not from the right of agreement, but from the might of the bayonet!

I stand by to be schooled.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:01 am to
The Supreme Court ruled in 'Texas v. White' that all laws and acts to give secession force were null, void and without force.

So you can bleat all you like about legal secession. No such thing.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 8:03 am
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
67692 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:04 am to
and yet the U.S. has supported self-determination and secession as part of its official foreign policy.

Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia (all backed by the U.S.)

bunch of hypocrites our government is
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:06 am to
The 13 states in 1779 ratified the 'Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union'.

Perpetual Union.


They thereby yielded ultimate soverignty to the national government.

Bleat all you like.
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
13494 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:18 am to
And yet that document of "perpetual union" were declared null and void!
Address Declaration of Independence.
Texas independence.
West Virginia.

4 answers please.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:18 am to
Re the Articles.

As President Lincoln said, what is more lasting that a perpetual Union made more perfect?

The 13 states pledged their perpetual alligience to the Union. I know neo rebs like to ignore the definition of common words commonly used. But the record is clear. As Time passed a Slave Power rose up and was willing to rend the Union to keep slavery. But that doesn't mean that the 13 states somehow didn't create a union of states.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/12/17 at 8:44 am to
The Articles proved to be inadequate to national purposes. There was no taxation, no executive, no judicary.

The States were invited to send delegates to a Constitutional Convention.

It was kind of ad hoc. But the states did agree to put the new government into operation once 9 states ratified the document. Which again, pledges to make the Union more perfect. No one in 1790 had any illusion about what that meant.
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