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Message
re: Lincoln on Lincoln
Posted on 6/12/17 at 9:04 am to WhiskeyPapa
Posted on 6/12/17 at 9:04 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
It was kind of ad hoc. But the states did agree to put the new government into operation once 9 states ratified the document. Which again, pledges to make the Union more perfect. No one in 1790 had any illusion about what that meant.
If a document is replaced, then it's replaced in its entirety. A new government was created and the new document doesn't claim perpetuity. Just a little over twenty years later Northern states were talking succession, and the arguments against it did not include the Articles of Confederation.
Did the Articles of Confederation declare the Declaration of Independence null in void. The 13 colonies recognized a perpetual union with the king. Old honest Abe complained that some of the land succeeding was obtained by US cost. But the American colonies were protected at British cost and the North West Territories were obtained by English blood and money. Did Abe say we're sorry King we are perpetually Crown lands. Did he say we're sorry for leaving you with the French and Indian War debt, here's a check!
The Union is perpetual only because the North invaded the South and imposed its will. Don't revise rape as a love story. We are the child of this forced union. I'm good with that. But don't make the Yankees God's most noble creatures.
The victor gets to right the history, but nothing forces one not to call BS.
1
Posted on 6/12/17 at 9:18 am to WhiskeyPapa
Walt, I thought you said that you never start these conversations? That you only answer them?
Posted on 6/12/17 at 9:20 am to WhiskeyPapa
We get it, you worship Lincoln. You tell us about it any chance you get
Posted on 6/12/17 at 9:43 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
bunch of neo-rebs will soon descend to defend succession.
The line of succession is generally not debated among either party. Unless you go overseas and start talking about who gets to decide the Dieu et mon droit.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 11:48 am to Gaspergou202
quote:
If a document is replaced, then it's replaced in its entirety. A new government was created and the new document doesn't claim perpetuity. Just a little over twenty years later Northern states were talking succession, and the arguments against it did not include the Articles of Confederation.
What is succession?
The new document pledges a more perfect Union.
Some northern states threatened secession during the war of 1812. Can you show they thought it was legal under the Constitution?
Posted on 6/12/17 at 11:51 am to bamafan1001
quote:
We get it, you worship Lincoln. You tell us about it any chance you get
Posted on 6/12/17 at 11:52 am to bamafan1001
quote:
We get it, you worship Lincoln. You tell us about it any chance you get
If you like. What President Lincoln did and said is constantly misrepresented by the neo-rebs. There needs to be some push back.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 11:54 am
Posted on 6/12/17 at 11:55 am to Gaspergou202
quote:
Where in the Constitution goes it declare the Union indivisible in 1860?
It didn't, and in fact the southern states believed it was within their rights (obviously). Lincoln disagreed, and the disagreement was settled with blood.
Victors make the rules, and the Union won the right to say secession was unconstitutional. Lincoln believed his job above all others was to preserve the union and so he did. You can disagree with his premise, but the outcome is documented history.
In the long run he did the south a favor, as an independent confederacy was unsustainable long term without the northern infrastructure.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 11:55 am to Champagne
quote:
Walt, I thought you said that you never start these conversations? That you only answer them?
That was true when I said it the other day. I thought I would distill the message. And this thread does that.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:03 pm to TrueTiger
quote:
Again, if one State may secede, so may another; and when all shall have seceded, none is left to pay the debts.
from this, it doesn't look like he was against secession in any form, but only secession that does not take into account the debt and payment of the seceding state.
A state ducking out without paying its part of the debt is absurd and unjust.
This is more complete:
"And this issue embraces more than the fate of these United States. It presents to the whole family of man the question whether a constitutional republic or democracy -- a Government of the people, by the same people -- can or cannot maintain its territorial integrity against its own domestic foes. It presents the question whether discontented individuals, too few in numbers to control administration, according to organic law, in any case, can always, upon the pretenses made in this case, or on any other pretenses, or arbitrarily without any pretense, break up their Government and thus practically put an end to free government upon the earth. It forces us to ask: "Is there, in all republics, this inherent and fatal weakness?" "Must a government, of necessity, be too strong for the liberties of its own people, or too weak to maintain its own existence?"
7/4/61
"As you would perpetuate popular government for the best people in the world, I beseech you that you do in no wise omit this. Our common country is in great peril, demanding the loftiest views, and boldest action to bring it speedy relief. Once relieved, it's form of government is saved to the world; it's beloved history, and cherished memories, are vindicated; and it's happy future fully assured, and rendered inconceivably grand. To you, more than to any others, the previlege is given, to assure that happiness, and swell that grandeur, and to link your own names therewith forever."
7/12/62
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:29 pm to WhiskeyPapa
How ironic.
Lincoln looked at the States formed from territories bought and paid for with Federal dollars as Federal property.
Did that mean that individuals living in those purchased territories became individuals who were now "owned" by the Federal Govt. and no longer had a right to form their own governments?
So in a sense all of the natives of these territories as well as transplants had become slaves to a new nation.
Lincoln looked at the States formed from territories bought and paid for with Federal dollars as Federal property.
Did that mean that individuals living in those purchased territories became individuals who were now "owned" by the Federal Govt. and no longer had a right to form their own governments?
So in a sense all of the natives of these territories as well as transplants had become slaves to a new nation.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 12:35 pm
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:35 pm to doubleb
quote:
Lincoln looked at the States formed from territories bought and paid fir with Federal dollars as Federal property.
No he did not.
Lincoln knew that slavery was controlled by -state- institutions. That is why he worked for the 13th amendment to eradicate slavery all across the country.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:40 pm to WhiskeyPapa
I can quote abe too!!!
have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.
Good ole baw abe, ladies n gents.
have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.
quote:
As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.
Good ole baw abe, ladies n gents.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:44 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
No he did not.
According to the information you provided by Lincoln, he believed these territories were bought and paid for and they couldn't leave without reimbursing the treasury. Maybe the inhabitants were more like serfs than slaves, but the point is Lincoln believed people and their land could be bought, sold and conquered.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:58 pm to doubleb
quote:
No he did not.
According to the information you provided by Lincoln, he believed these territories were bought and paid for and they couldn't leave without reimbursing the treasury.
He said that all the states were equally liable for the debt incurred in the name of all.
Is it possible that all the states but one secede and leave the sole remaining state to pay all the debt?
"If all the States, save one, should assert the power to drive that one out of the Union, it is presumed the whole class of seceder politicians would at once deny the power, and denounce the act as the greatest outrage upon State rights. But suppose that precisely the same act, instead of being called “driving the one out,’’ should be called “the seceding of the others from that one,’’ it would be exactly what the seceders claim to do; unless, indeed, they make the point, that the one, because it is a minority, may rightfully do, what the others, because they are a majority, may not rightfully do. These politicians are subtle, and profound, on the rights of minorities. They are not partial to that power which made the Constitution, and speaks from the preamble, calling itself “We, the People.’’
- 7/4/61
Posted on 6/12/17 at 12:58 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Victors make the rules, and the Union won the right to say secession was unconstitutional.
Exactly! Might makes right. All of this the South had no legal right to leave is revisionist nonsense that far to many were taught in grammar school.
The US had the right to leave the king's domain and stick the crown with the debt generated for their protection because they had the might to win and shape the world to their desired reality.
The South would have had the right to leave IF they had had the might to impose their will.
The Union remains indivisible until some one can forcefully change it.
That is the lesson of the Declaration of Independence.
Reality, Texas had the right to succeed from Mexico because their army captured Santa Anna. West Virginia had the right to succeed from Virginia because their Northern allies had the might to force Virginia's acceptance. Hawaii lost its Independence because the US had the right from its might to annex it. "Victors make the rules, and the Union won the right to say secession was unconstitutional."
Lincoln was no immaculate constitutional god. He was willing to use might to force compliance and didn't shy away from killing 600,000 to 800,000 Americans to do it.
I'm happy with the results. The CSA could easily sustain itself as an independent nation. Other than the North what nation was willing to pay the price to conquer it? Only England and Mexico could even hope to try. But neither the USA or CSA would be a super power and a force of great good in the world. I am better off that my ancestors were subjugated just as the great grandchildren of slaves are better off due to their ancestor's enslavement.
Let's just not pretend either were correct, just, and good.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 1:12 pm
Posted on 6/12/17 at 1:16 pm to WhiskeyPapa
Walt: I am also a big fan of Lincoln. Washington and Lincoln are the greatest US POTUSs. Washington of course being the very best POTUS.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 1:23 pm to TrueTiger
quote:
Maybe, but it's become a much larger country and very diverse now. That's a different element than they were dealing with.
The founding fathers only permitted white people to be citizens. It is in the different documents stressing white people.
quote:
Many diverse people in proximity with each other is bound to increase pressure and tension.
That is probably why they only allowed white people to be citizens. They knew the problems that come along with diversity. The best way to avoid those problems is to not allow that situation in the first place.
Posted on 6/12/17 at 1:27 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
Victors make the rules, and the Union won the right to say secession was unconstitutional.
Exactly!
And it was outside the law. Prior to the collapse of the so-called CSA, the secesh was content to say that what they did -was- revolution.
Consider this section of the South Carolina secession document:
"We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do."
Does that look familiar?
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
-Declaration of Independence.
The Secesh were glad to call themselves revolutionaries -- until they changed their tune after the so-called CSA collapsed. Then they claimed that their failed rebellion was in fact legal.
Pathetic.
This post was edited on 6/12/17 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 6/12/17 at 1:29 pm to WhiskeyPapa
"If a man cuts off his penis, does he not cease being a man? If George identifies as Susan, shall we not honor that self-identification and also refer to her as Susan?"
-Abraham Lincoln
-Abraham Lincoln
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