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Message
1
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:32 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
There is no song and dance, the manufacturers are not claiming what you are claiming.
I gave you the quotes. Again, not one fact sheet says you will be "immune."
If you're willing to admit that by your definition there is no vaccine, I'll concede. But you're not just moving the goalposts, you're grinding them into a fine powder and using a leaf blower to distribute across the whole stadium.
These vaccines like all vaccines offer clinical resistance to disease. This is the definition of immunity.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:33 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:Vaccine definition has been entrenched in meaning probably decades before you were born and before your knowledge of the meaning of the term.
Again, you are giving a lot of credit to understanding things that we didn't understand until very recently. That the stilted definition of vaccines used here doesn't reflect the actual reality of what immunologic principles are behind each vaccine, where there are meaningful differences.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:35 pm to jonnyanony
American Journal of Therapeutics - Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines
LINK - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252/
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:38 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Which is an argument for what?
Exactly what you responded to below.
quote:
What factors do you need to get herd immunity?
You don't know?
quote:mayoclinic
Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. Often, a percentage of the population must be capable of getting a disease in order for it to spread. This is called a threshold proportion. If the proportion of the population that is immune to the disease is greater than this threshold, the spread of the disease will decline. This is known as the herd immunity threshold.
I said "They do reduce the risk of disease severity."
You skipped over that.
If getting a disease above means "carrying the virus" then the vaccines are never going to allow us to reach the herd immunity threshold.
Because the vaccines are not preventing infection or transmission, which is what the mayoclinic refers to as immunity.
Again....Given the apparent virulence on the majority of our population, are the means justified?
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:39 pm to jonnyanony
quote:
I gave you the quotes. Again, not one fact sheet says you will be "immune." If you're willing to admit that by your definition there is no vaccine, I'll concede. But you're not just moving the goalposts, you're grinding them into a fine powder and using a leaf blower to distribute across the whole stadium. These vaccines like all vaccines offer clinical resistance to disease. This is the definition of immunity.
You are claiming it provides "immunity", the manufacturers actually stay pretty far away from all that.
Depending on the Law (federal/state or regulation), the Jab may or may not be vaccine, and may or may not be gene therapy.
Nobody is moving the goalposts but you, I have said the same thing over and over.
I would say a common person doesn't expect to get something if they received a vaccine i.e. normal usage of the word.
The guy isn't wrong, he is right.
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 1:41 pm
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:43 pm to the808bass
From what I recall, the synergistic effects of Doxycycline with Ivermectin yielded good results, but it was one random study. Doxycycline was mentioned briefly in my textbook for the possibility of treating W. bancrofti in Onchocerciasis, which might make it synergistic with Ivermectin. But if the data is definitively bad, then its bad. There are several classes of medications that could possibly work to potentiate Ivermectin, once a clear MOA is established.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:48 pm to LSUbest
quote:
You don't know?
Lol. I do know. But I meant immunologically. As in what specific characteristics you need in the morphology of the pathogen in question, from its nucleic acid profile, to its mode of transmission, to common resistance patterns, to what type of immunity it produces naturally. There’s a reason we won’t be able to gain herd immunity to certain bacteria, like N. gonorrhea.
quote:
If getting a disease above means "carrying the virus" then the vaccines are never going to allow us to reach the herd immunity threshold.
Which diseases have herd immunity now and what allowed us to get to that point? I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t strictly through vaccination.
quote:
Again....Given the apparent virulence on the majority of our population, are the means justified?
In what terms? Because if we aren’t willing to do everything required to reach herd immunity, the most these vaccines can offer is protection against severity.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:50 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
Vaccine definition has been entrenched in meaning probably decades before you were born and before your knowledge of the meaning of the term.
Then you should take that up with the writers of all my immunology and microbiology textbooks.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 1:53 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
That included taking ivermectin, an anti parasitic drug that is formulated for use in humans. There have been over 4 billion prescriptions for ivermectin since it's approval for human consumption. While it is not approved to treat COVID-19, it does appear to show enough merit to be used as an additional supplement.
Fixed it for Them
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:02 pm to crazy4lsu
Seems like you repeatedly dodge precise questions with your own requests for intrinsic details.
We all know why you pretend to be so smart that you're ignorant. So I'll answer for you.
Given the apparent virulence on the majority of our population, are the means justified?
No.
Do the vaccines produce immunity?
No.
Will the vaccines lead us to herd immunity?
No.
We all know why you pretend to be so smart that you're ignorant. So I'll answer for you.
Given the apparent virulence on the majority of our population, are the means justified?
No.
Do the vaccines produce immunity?
No.
Will the vaccines lead us to herd immunity?
No.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:07 pm to LSUbest
quote:
Seems like you repeatedly dodge precise questions with your own requests for intrinsic details.
And it seems you don’t understand what herd immunity actually requires.
quote:
Given the apparent virulence on the majority of our population, are the means justified?
No.
What means? Mandates? If they decrease the severity of the disease, then they should be used, the vaccine should be used, just as any potential therapy. But mandates without the use of a cogent overall strategy won’t mean much in the long-term.
quote:
Do the vaccines produce immunity? No
Again, the difference between the type of immunity produced is meaningful in this instance, because immunity doesn’t just mean ‘prevention of infection for forever.’
quote:
Will the vaccines lead us to herd immunity?
No.
Our current strategy of letting people get infected won’t lead to herd immunity either, because of the morphological characteristics of this particular virus. Herd immunity is possible under a cogent strategy, but if you don’t understand that herd immunity for other diseases did not come from vaccination alone, then I can’t help you understand why herd immunity is difficult to reach for this particular virus.
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:16 pm to Robin Masters
quote:
He’s vaccinated
Did he get the covid vaccine shots though? I thought he was had not and was still on the fence about it.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:24 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Again, the difference between the type of immunity produced is meaningful in this instance, because immunity doesn’t just mean ‘prevention of infection for forever.’
Which is why many will say its not a vaccine.
Meaning, now you have all kinds of variants in "theory" (as I doubt they have isolated them) and we have no data as to whether the Jab prevents anything.
You really have 3 main groups of definitions... medical terminology, legal terminology and common usage terminology. And all of those can be split up into groups as well.
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 2:26 pm
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:25 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
Which is why many will say its not a vaccine.
Which is why I brought up T-independent and T-dependent responses.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:27 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Which is why I brought up T-independent and T-dependent responses.
Yes, but you keep talking in absolutes, he is right in the context of his post.
My thought is they are drugs which might or might not help someone with symptoms... best I got.
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:28 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
And it seems you don’t understand what herd immunity actually requires.
I understand this....
Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. Often, a percentage of the population must be capable of getting a disease in order for it to spread. This is called a threshold proportion. If the proportion of the population that is immune to the disease is greater than this threshold, the spread of the disease will decline. This is known as the herd immunity threshold.
But if you think mandates may decrease the severity of the disease......
quote:
Again, the difference between the type of immunity produced is meaningful in this instance, because immunity doesn’t just mean ‘prevention of infection for forever.’
Give me 5 years of very low possibility of transmission and we can talk about the shots being effective.
4-6 months of possibly reducing severity of disease is a therapeutic.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:44 pm to LSUbest
quote:
Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely.
Which isn’t all that advanced of an understanding.
quote:
Give me 5 years of very low possibility of transmission and we can talk about the shots being effective.
4-6 months of possibly reducing severity of disease is a therapeutic.
Lol. If we have it your way, we are never going to reach herd immunity.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:49 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Lol. If we have it your way, we are never going to reach herd immunity.
Or more like the drugs will never cut transmission rates down anyway, not that we have any real way of knowing anyway.
Its called a cult.
Posted on 9/2/21 at 2:51 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
Yes, but you keep talking in absolutes, he is right in the context of his post.
My thought is they are drugs which might or might not help someone with symptoms... best I got.
Well, both T-independent and T-dependent responses can be considered routes for vaccines, so I don’t know whose context I need to look at to understand that the person stating otherwise is wrong. That one is weakly immunologic doesn’t somehow take away from its vaccination status.
This post was edited on 9/2/21 at 2:52 pm
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