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re: Is it time for MAGA to admit that neoconservatism IS America First?
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:28 am to Ingeniero
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:28 am to Ingeniero
quote:
In essence, the US derives power from its ability to exert overwhelming force throughout the world. That includes deterrence in the form of destabilizing authoritarian regimes to allow an opening for democratic, US-aligned movements to take power. Just like we're seeing in Iran now.
bullshite. The "allow opening for democratic movements to take place" is just a sales line for the hopelessly naive. Destabilize is correct. But what has too often filled that vacuum is intelligence installed factions that turn into a terrorist infection often larger than the problem they were installed to "solve".
Neocon policy CREATED Osama Bin Laden, ISIS and transformed Israel into a slavering, untethered wolf. It was put to its ultimate test to date under Dubya Bush and failed miserably, at the cost of a great deal of debt, American lives and no telling how many innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. America first isn't drowning in debt and killing our young people nor is it becoming a threat for war to a significant part of the world's nations. That's a recipe for destruction. (See Rome, Britain, France, Ottoman Empire, etc.)
Reagan spoke of a shining city on a hill. He didn't preface that as having missiles pointed at the rest of the world.
1
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:29 am to Ingeniero
America First can include interventionism around the entire world but never at the expense of dealing with domestic crises.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:34 am to Ingeniero
quote:
Rather than pretend they've always been pro-interventionism (which no one believes) wouldn't our MAGA bros do better to offer an apology and admit that neocons' ideology has been right all along? Isolationism doesn't make your problems go away any more than not going to the doctor to get that lump checked means you don't have cancer. Trump knows this, which is why he's surrounded himself with hawkish advisors who are encouraging a "world police" mindset, completely opposed to what lots on this board would've supported just a few months ago.
No
I mean, nobody needs to apologize to Bill Kristol.
Isolationism in the strictest form isn't viable if America wants the dollar to remain supreme and America to have the incredibly amounts of influence it has now. I'm open to the debate on those things, but I assume most want to keep it that way at least to some extent.
Neoconservatism, as practiced, has put American lives and treasure in harm's way for minimal gain. We've created these circular arguments for ourselves - essentially - well we're involved here, so we have to be allied with this nation, pour resources into this stuff, put the interests of that nation alongside our own, etc.
That doesn't mean we can't get involved in the world - I think it's probably necessary to have a flurry of this sort of thing if we're moving meaningfully to a hemispheric focus. But you also can't blame people for looking at this stuff through the lens of the other stuff.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:36 am to AUCom96
quote:
That includes deterrence in the form of destabilizing authoritarian regimes to allow an opening for democratic, US-aligned movements to take power.
quote:
bullshite. The "allow opening for democratic movements to take place" is just a sales line for the hopelessly naive.
I got a chuckle out of that one too.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:59 am to LuckyTiger
I'd be on board with this if the American taxpayer benefitted from it. We dont at all, we are the ones footing the bill while the MIC gets richer and richer.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 11:41 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Lots of people who took the MAGA/AF talking point position on Ukraine are feeling like this right now:
It's easy for me to understand that Ukraine has never attacked us while Iran has. Once you accept this obvious fact, you don't have to look for stupid comparisons between the two.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 12:41 pm to 632627
quote:
Neither Kuwait nor Afghanistan had anything to do with Israel.
Also, saddam/iraq were enemies of Iran, and taking him out would empower Iran. By several accounts, the Israelis were against us going into Iraq.
There has never been a U.S. intervention in the ME that Netinyahu did not encourage and support, except when the Marines stopped the IDF from an attack in Beirut in 1983...
Posted on 3/25/26 at 1:06 pm to Crimsonmarine
quote:
There has never been a U.S. intervention in the ME that Netinyahu did not encourage and support, except when the Marines stopped the IDF from an attack in Beirut in 1983...
This is groyper nonsense. Much of our involvement in the ME is directly due to oil. The rest is a quagmire. But, I get it, it’s way easier just to blame Israel.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 1:15 pm to Ingeniero
MAGA. Never GIVES up
Posted on 3/25/26 at 2:27 pm to Ingeniero
Does it ever end? Just seems unsustainable given our recent history overseas. Neoconservatism is like dipping your toe into facism but you don’t want to admit it. You can’t just say “we have to get them before they get us”. You have to come up with bullshite lies and excuses and recruit low hanging fruit to serve in an unmotivated military. The wars are never effective or beneficial to the American tax payer. The wars benefit the MIC, bureaucrats, joos and politicians. We are breeding a retarded consumerist state, while culling off all the decent values that made our country great in the first place. In a two party state you will attract the opposite form of neoconservatives. You will attract more liberal democratic socials that will continue to stall progress. At least facism is honest and everyone is fighting for the nation. The reality is all the tough guy neoconservatives are the last guys who would ever show up to a fight.
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