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Is Henry Kissinger's reason for Russian invasion of Ukraine wrong?
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:05 am
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:05 am
quote:
Mr. Kissinger courted controversy earlier this year by suggesting that incautious policies on the part of the U.S. and NATO may have touched off the crisis in Ukraine. He sees no choice but to take Vladimir Putin’s stated security concerns seriously and believes that it was a mistake for NATO to signal to Ukraine that it might eventually join the alliance: “I thought that Poland—all the traditional Western countries that have been part of Western history—were logical members of NATO,” he says. But Ukraine, in his view, is a collection of territories once appended to Russia, which Russians see as their own, even though “some Ukrainians” do not. Stability would be better served by its acting as a buffer between Russia and the West: “I was in favor of the full independence of Ukraine, but I thought its best role was something like Finland.”
Maybe the U.S. was a little too aggressive in their desire to expand NATO eastward into Ukraine, no?
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Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:09 am to GumboPot
Putin invading kind of validates Ukraine's concerns.
Simplest explanation is Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire.
Simplest explanation is Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:09 am to GumboPot
follow the money
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:10 am to GumboPot
quote:
Maybe the U.S. was a little too aggressive in their desire to expand NATO eastward
Yes! The US was soooooooo aggressive when Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria applied for membership to a defensive alliance.
Such aggression. We should have vetoed their membership applications, because we all know that Russia alone has the unilateral authority to dictate the foreign policy of every country that has ever been administered from Moscow.
I just cannot believe that the US was sooooo aggressive when those countries applied for membership. Pure, naked aggression.
quote:
Maybe the U.S. was a little too aggressive in their desire to expand NATO eastward into Ukraine, no?
Ukraine is and was nowhere close to becoming a NATO member. But, in any event, as stated previously, Russia gets to dictate what other countries do.
This post was edited on 9/28/22 at 11:11 am
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:12 am to GumboPot
quote:
But Ukraine, in his view, is a collection of territories once appended to Russia, which Russians see as their own, even though “some Ukrainians” do not.
He is right. Russia and Ukraine have been in a struggle for centuries now. Lots of ethnic Russians all over Ukraine.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:13 am to GumboPot
He's essentially correct. In military history the term was 'encirclement.' Nations become edgy when enemies increase territory around them. It's part of the reason behind The Monroe Doctrine.
In recent years NATO has been increasing their territory toward Russia.
Throughout history encirclement that is unopposed has resulted in the invasion of the encircled country.
In recent years NATO has been increasing their territory toward Russia.
Throughout history encirclement that is unopposed has resulted in the invasion of the encircled country.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:14 am to Zach
Have you seen a map? NATO is nowhere close to capable of encirling Russia
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:16 am to GumboPot
I suspect Kissinger is largely, if not entirely correct, but this in no way excuses Russia's barbarous invasion of a peaceful neighbor.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:17 am to GumboPot
quote:
Maybe the U.S. was a little too aggressive
Lol. I didn’t realize it was aggressive for countries to determine their own fate, and what alliances they choose…
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:19 am to GumboPot
quote:ya think?
Maybe the U.S. was a little too aggressive in their desire to expand NATO eastward into Ukraine, no?
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:31 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Have you seen a map? NATO is nowhere close to capable of encirling Russia
Closing off Europe is encirling.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:32 am to sta4ever
quote:
Lol. I didn’t realize it was aggressive for countries to determine their own fate, and what alliances they choose…
The US promised not to expand NATO initially.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:32 am to GumboPot
The hegemonic US banksters have now declared war in the average German citizen by attacking the pipeline. When the Germans suffer this winter hopefully they decide to overthrow the US puppets in Germany and force the US military out of Germany and retake their land, self determination, and economy.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:36 am to sta4ever
quote:
Lol. I didn’t realize it was aggressive for countries to determine their own fate, and what alliances they choose…
In a perfect world all countries should have the right to self determination. But this comment ignores the history of Ukraine and Russia. I understand NATO is sold as a defensive alliance against apparently weak Russia but Russia views NATO as an offensive advancement of western hegemony.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:37 am to Stingray
quote:
The US promised not to expand NATO initially.
If this “promise” isn’t on a piece of paper anywhere, then this is not true.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:39 am to Stingray
quote:
The US promised not to expand NATO initially.
Correct. And as established, the United States and Russia are empowered to unilaterally determine what other nations do and what alliances they choose to join.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:39 am to GumboPot
quote:
But this comment ignores the history of Ukraine and Russia
Please tell me what history I’m ignoring.
quote:
but Russia views NATO as an offensive advancement of western hegemony
Russia views a lot of things differently than we do. Doesn’t mean they’re right though.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:40 am to GumboPot
quote:
Russia views NATO as an offensive advancement of western hegemony.
Imagine believing that.
They want the resources.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:40 am to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
The hegemonic US banksters have now declared war in the average German citizen by attacking the pipeline. When the Germans suffer this winter hopefully they decide to overthrow the US puppets in Germany and force the US military out of Germany and retake their land, self determination, and economy.
The same people declaring self determination to join NATO in this thread would not be happy about this.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 11:44 am to Indefatigable
In Europe, the northern coastal plains take up a large area that is difficult to defend and prone to sweeping mechanized army advances. The narrowest choke point in this coastal plain is in Germany, near the historic border of East and West Germany. The further East one goes from there, the wider this plain becomes, making it increasingly less defensible. At that point, the only thing which protects the Russian interior from invasion is time, logistics, and weather.
Every time NATO has expanded eastward from West Germany, it has made Russia’s interior more and more difficult to defend by having it placed around a wider potential front with a starting point closer to that heartland. Finland and The Ukraine are necessary buffers because an invasion into Russia from those points are so close to the Russian heartland, and along such difficult to defend terrain, that an adequate defense would be nearly impossible. A large scale invasion force from Finland could besiege St. Petersburg on the first day while simultaneously severing communications between the Russian government and their nuclear arsenal on the Cola Peninsula, essentially eliminating the option of mutually assured destruction.
A full scale invasion launched from The Ukraine could reach the Kremlin in just a couple days, advancing along wide, flat, open land. Russia cannot adequately defend itself from full-scale invasions launched from either of those locations. Estonia is precarious enough as it is.
As such, it is not shocking that Russia is acting how it is. NATO aligned Finland and Ukraine would be orders of magnitude more dangerous for Russia than a nuclear soviet-aligned Cuba was for America in the 1960’s.
Every time NATO has expanded eastward from West Germany, it has made Russia’s interior more and more difficult to defend by having it placed around a wider potential front with a starting point closer to that heartland. Finland and The Ukraine are necessary buffers because an invasion into Russia from those points are so close to the Russian heartland, and along such difficult to defend terrain, that an adequate defense would be nearly impossible. A large scale invasion force from Finland could besiege St. Petersburg on the first day while simultaneously severing communications between the Russian government and their nuclear arsenal on the Cola Peninsula, essentially eliminating the option of mutually assured destruction.
A full scale invasion launched from The Ukraine could reach the Kremlin in just a couple days, advancing along wide, flat, open land. Russia cannot adequately defend itself from full-scale invasions launched from either of those locations. Estonia is precarious enough as it is.
As such, it is not shocking that Russia is acting how it is. NATO aligned Finland and Ukraine would be orders of magnitude more dangerous for Russia than a nuclear soviet-aligned Cuba was for America in the 1960’s.
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