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re: Is Henry Kissinger's reason for Russian invasion of Ukraine wrong?
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:29 pm to crazy4lsu
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:29 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
don't think there is a situation in recent memory where a nation was this obviously acting in bad-faith as Russia was before the invasion.
You’re forgetting a rather large dragon who is culturally dedicated to acting in bad faith and is 10x the bad actor threat than the bear could ever be.
1
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:The fact that people continually engage with those spouting these Russian talking points is equally mind-numbing. I don't think you are making ground with the Putin wing here.
This is Putin's "annexation" strategy. He floods areas with ethnic Russians (and Russian Russians posing as such) and then instigates a perceived civil war. That way, when Russia intervenes, they're totally not invading a sovereign nation...just protecting ethnic Russians.
The fact that you typed this out as a serious defense of Putin is mind-numbing.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:30 pm to Indefatigable
Most assumed it wasn’t a serious suggestion by Russia, but what if it had been? What if it hadn’t been, but through those levels of cooperation, ties between those nations legitimately strengthened over time to the point that Russia was no longer a belligerent?
We can speculate all day on what might have happened, but we all know what did. Russia revealed itself to be the aggressor that NATO said they were. Whether that happened as a result of Russia’s long term strategies, as a reaction to Europe’s treatment, or some combination of both, I don’t know. However, it seems like no one is going to really come out ahead in this Ukrainian conflict.
Russia has revealed its military to be significantly weaker than most anyone expected. NATO and the EU looks to expand into Ukraine, Finland, Moldova, and elsewhere. At the same time, the Russian economy has been somewhat resilient in the face of sanctions, and western nations are being severely stressed by losing access to critical resources from Russia and The Ukraine, particularly natural gas, fertilizer, and wheat. It seems like both sides have been significantly harmed and weakened by this conflict.
We can speculate all day on what might have happened, but we all know what did. Russia revealed itself to be the aggressor that NATO said they were. Whether that happened as a result of Russia’s long term strategies, as a reaction to Europe’s treatment, or some combination of both, I don’t know. However, it seems like no one is going to really come out ahead in this Ukrainian conflict.
Russia has revealed its military to be significantly weaker than most anyone expected. NATO and the EU looks to expand into Ukraine, Finland, Moldova, and elsewhere. At the same time, the Russian economy has been somewhat resilient in the face of sanctions, and western nations are being severely stressed by losing access to critical resources from Russia and The Ukraine, particularly natural gas, fertilizer, and wheat. It seems like both sides have been significantly harmed and weakened by this conflict.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:32 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
W telling them to frick off in the early 2000’s when they floated NATO cooperation was a mistake.
I think the bombings in the Balkans, the withdrawal of the US from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, and the Orange Revolution were more important factors in the deterioration of relations, and I don't think anyone in the West took Russia's offer seriously. The situation in the Balkans, looking back, really highlighted the fact that there wasn't real cooperation to be had.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:33 pm to crazy4lsu
Invasion of Afghanistan
Iraq me Dave Petraeus
Intervention in Libya
Yemeni civil war
Partition of Sudan
These are all recent
Iraq me Dave Petraeus
Intervention in Libya
Yemeni civil war
Partition of Sudan
These are all recent
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:34 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
You’re forgetting a rather large dragon who is culturally dedicated to acting in bad faith and is 10x the bad actor threat than the bear could ever be.
China? I don't think China has ever done anything to this scale, as of yet, though they aren't a good-faith actor by any definition.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:34 pm to GumboPot
it's a border dispute that's none of our business. let them fight it out. we shouldn't be invovled.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:35 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
China?
I'm guessing the US
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:35 pm to 1999
quote:
it's a border dispute that's none of our business. let them fight it out. we shouldn't be invovled.
This is my opinion. I would like to see Russia lose their arse in this war, but I don’t want to spend my taxpayers or sacrifice American citizens to make that happen.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:36 pm to kingbob
quote:
These are all recent
You are misunderstanding. Putin was offered extremely favorable terms in exchange for de-escalation, terms that he can never hope to get now. Those situations where NATO acted at the behest of the US or a specific member's interest were not similar.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:36 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I don't think China has ever done anything to this scale, as of yet, though they aren't a good-faith actor by any definition.
Their intentional obfuscation (at best) or release (at worse) of the Covid virus doesn’t qualify?
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I'm guessing the US
Well it is way better to be in the 'imperial core' than it is to be at the periphery. I'd choose a world with the US as the sole hegemon 10 out of 10 times.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:37 pm to kingbob
quote:
Invasion of Afghanistan
Bro, we had UN authority to invade Afghanistan.
Iraq? Sure, but the UN and NATO didn't go with us.
quote:
Intervention in Libya
That was a French op that we had to save b/c they're incompetent. We also had a level of UN support for that.
quote:
Yemeni civil war
Proxy civil war
quote:
Partition of Sudan
What was teh US's role in this?
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:39 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I'd choose a world with the US as the sole hegemon 10 out of 10 times.
Everyone would.
These people shitting on the US were flag waivers until December 2020. They're anti-America now b/c their party isn't in power and they've been programmed to the polar worldview.
This post was edited on 9/28/22 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:40 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Their intentional obfuscation (at best) or release (at worse) of the Covid virus doesn’t qualify?
That's a very good point. The obfuscation is definitely bad, because it set the ground for the latter, but that is another issue.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:42 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
These people shitting on the US were flag waivers until December 2020. They're anti-America now b/c their party isn't in power and they've been programmed to the polar worldview.
I’m thoroughly convinced that this board’s general position on the war in Ukraine and its causes would be completely different if Ukrainian corruption/Zelensky wouldn’t have been front and center for the first impeachment fiasco.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:46 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Putin invading kind of validates Ukraine's concerns.
Simplest explanation is Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire.
Some of ya'll just gloss over 2014 and the U.S. involvement in fomenting the Maidan Revolution which involved a coup against the then Ukrainian president. It's like you've blocked it completely from your minds and it didn't happen.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:46 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I’m thoroughly convinced that this board’s general position on the war in Ukraine and its causes would be completely different if Ukrainian corruption/Zelensky wouldn’t have been front and center for the first impeachment fiasco.
It's all just about the other/enemy and the filtered talking points from the competing intelligentsias.
There are people trying to form two groups within our population to increase political polarity and the perceived threat of the other. Think Communists and fascists in 1930s Europe with roughly the same labels (but not necessarily the same politics).
So now leftists are pro-War and conservatives are doves, b/c leftists are in power. There is a very large population of posters on this site who (1) supported the War in Iraq; (2) defended neocon theory under GWB (3) ate freedom fries and hated France; (4) criticized military intervention in Syria and Libya while Obama was in office; (5) hated America 2008-2016; (6) who learned to love America once Trump was elected and (7) now openly talk shite about America and totally don't defend/support Vlad Putin.
This post was edited on 9/28/22 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:46 pm to TS1926
quote:
Some of ya'll just gloss over 2014 and the U.S. involvement in fomenting the Maidan Revolution which involved a coup against the then Ukrainian president. It's like you've blocked it completely from your minds and it didn't happen.
That government was removed from power three years ago.
Posted on 9/28/22 at 1:48 pm to TS1926
quote:
Some of ya'll just gloss over 2014 and the U.S. involvement in fomenting the Maidan Revolution which involved a coup against the then Ukrainian president.
Why did you call him the "then Ukrainian president" and not "Russian puppet installed by a Russian coup"?
quote:
It's like you've blocked it completely from your minds and it didn't happen.
No it's just irrelevant b/c our coup-installed government was ousted, naturally, by Zelensky's government.
The man in charge literally ran against, and defeated, the government you're citing as a cause of strife in 2022
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