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re: If both political parties are on the side of Labor, what does this mean for capitalism?

Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:23 am to
Posted by OBReb6
Memphissippi
Member since Jul 2010
41553 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:23 am to
Ok let me be more clear

The only absolute true free market in theory would be open borders globalization. We both understand why there’s not a need to get into a silly argument about this right now. A state must restrict immigration or else it is not a state.

Moving on as to the topic of the OP specifically. The H1B system is a creation of the worst parts of the marriage between the state and private corporate interests. The visas are granted by the state, but the visa holders are beholden to the companies they work for. They must apply to a certain company at a certain wage prior to entry. Their status as a continued resident alien is more or less at the discretion of their employer. Do we agree with this for the most part?

If it were like the past as your late 19th to early 20th century example, these same people would be allowed to immigrate permanently, immediately. They would have much more leverage to find their way in the system as permanent citizens, and move around freely between companies to shop their worth and move up.

So the current system is less free market than what would be under a more free immigration system, and I would argue the current system is also less free market than shutting immigration down completely. My reasoning is that the current system is more akin to indentured servitude than it is a truly free market you would see with open immigration.

The current system allows corporations to receive artificially lower labor costs, very similar to the illegal immigration system, but for different reasons. This also allows larger corporations with closer ties to the government to benefit from this system, while small companies don’t have the same access.

It’s a bastardization of the free market, and is disingenuous for you to present it otherwise.
This post was edited on 12/30/24 at 9:33 am
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
99891 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:26 am to
You are making a lot of false premises in your post. The main one being that we currently have a true free market capitalist economy in the first place, and that working class american workers have simply been displaced due to the economy being more advanced past their skills. That’s simply not true, if it were then we wouldn’t have such a demand for foreign labor to do working class jobs. Those guys arent any more skilled or educated than working class whites, blacks or Hispanic Americans.

Govt policy has created this situation. Too many entitlement programs are keeping working class Americans where they prefer to stay on welfare rather than work a manual labor job for a similar level of income. So to get those workers to fill those positions you either pay them well above market value or you use cheaper foreign labor on visas. Or you invest in automation.

Add to that a burdensome regulatory environment for many industries, and American companies cannot produce at a low enough cost to compete with foreign economies. So then you need tariffs in order to level the playing field.

I agree with your viewpoint ideologically but for it be viable you have to have a true free market economy to begin with.

Now the better solution instead of more protectionism and more immigration would be to revert back to a more free market economy by deregulation of industries, and major entitlement reform forcing many Americans to re enter the labor force. Once you reach full employment then look at immigration needs to fill what’s left. The problem is cutting entitlements and major regulatory reform can be political suicide so good luck getting Congress to vote for it, even though with our national debt situation it’s exactly what we need to do.

So the only option left is tariffs and pro labor policies to try and boost the American economy and keep Americans employed. The tough decisions that need to be made to keep the house of cards from falling won’t be made until it all crashes down eventually. We will keep patching and kicking the can down the road until it does all crash down.
Posted by ClemsonFann
SC
Member since Aug 2019
82 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:36 am to
How has this same system unfettered immigration helped canada become a tech superpower? Or has it just driven up the price of housing and goods.

Ill hang up and listen.
Posted by OBReb6
Memphissippi
Member since Jul 2010
41553 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:38 am to
quote:

If you're running a tech company and can pay (A) an H1B guy $20k or (B) goldennugget $80K, would you not want option A?


Is the fact that option (A) exists not itself a result of state interference?
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
6268 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:40 am to
quote:

The only absolute true free market in theory would be open borders globalization.


Exactly. It's also a transfer of wealth.
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6505 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:42 am to
We don't have to guess what happens when capitalists have full control. 7 day work weeks. No O.T. No benefits. No Social Security.

That's what he wants. And nothing short if that is "freedom" for him. Freedom for him is servitude for you.
.
quote:

In a world where capitalists have total control, humanity becomes a cog in the relentless machine of profit. The air is heavy with the acrid scent of industry, the sky permanently stained gray by unchecked factories. Workers shuffle into massive complexes, their eyes hollow, their bodies breaking under the weight of endless shifts. There are no weekends, no holidays—just the constant hum of machinery and the sharp bark of overseers demanding more.

In sweatshops across the globe, children as young as six hunch over sewing machines, their tiny fingers bloodied from stitching garments destined for department store shelves. Their laughter is a distant memory, replaced by cries that go unheard. In the cobalt mines of Congo, teenagers claw at the earth with their bare hands, inhaling toxic dust to extract the precious minerals that fuel smartphones. When one collapses from exhaustion or injury, they are dragged aside, their place immediately filled by another desperate soul.

Corporate-run towns strip workers of autonomy. Rent is deducted from meager wages, leaving them trapped in perpetual debt. Surveillance is omnipresent—cameras monitor every movement, every breath, ensuring no one dares to rest or rebel. Those who speak out vanish quietly, replaced by others too afraid to question.

Abandoned factory dormitories are ringed with suicide nets, stark reminders of the hopelessness that consumes those within. In one city, a young woman leaps from the 12th floor. She is caught, not by compassion, but by nylon mesh designed to save her productivity for another day.

Meanwhile, the planet groans under the strain of unbridled greed. Rivers run black with industrial waste, their fish floating belly-up in a toxic soup. Forests are stripped bare, their once-vibrant ecosystems replaced by barren wastelands. Entire species vanish, sacrificed on the altar of progress.

Yet, in gleaming skyscrapers far removed from this misery, CEOs toast record profits. Their suits are tailored from the sweat of garment workers; their smartphones are polished with the lives of miners. They dine on delicacies flown across the globe, oblivious to the dying communities that supplied their feast. For them, the world is nothing but a resource, and humanity nothing but a means to an end.

This is the world of unchecked capitalism: a dystopia where the rich grow fat on the bones of the poor, and the soul of humanity is sold for a profit.


The OP demands sweatshops ... either for foreign slave labor or for your children.
This post was edited on 12/30/24 at 9:47 am
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
6268 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:42 am to
quote:

You are making a lot of false premises in your post.



Yep!
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
464190 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:44 am to
quote:

When you start a premise that is wrong, the whole theory is bunk. Since your premise is very wrong, I stopped reading.


Your imagination leads to your loss.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
62453 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:44 am to
quote:

If both political parties are on the side of Labor, what does this mean for capitalism?
It works? The better question is what does it say about US labor.

Ever notice the NBA doesn't need DEI protectionism? Once upon a time the US labor market didn't either. The perceived need for protection from the open market says mroe about the performance and price of our labor than anything else.
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6505 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:47 am to
7 day work weeks.
Child labor.

Did you enjoy your weekend?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
464190 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:48 am to
quote:

How so? By stating the threshold for H-1B should be raised?


No like real, direct collective bargaining between employer and employee

quote:

I see how you can spin that to protecting wages but I think that's a fairly narrow view of it.

There seems to be 2 complaints about it: (1) wage suppression and (2) racism (which I am doing my best to avoid this digressing into).

What are the other views?

quote:

BTW, one topic not discussed is the cost to employee Americans beyond just wages. The taxes and insurance regulations alone are burdensome. Correcting that alone could impact H-1B. I know you own a business like I do so you understand that.

There isn't just one variable (wages).

We also need to gut our welfare state. Remove minimum wage laws. Remove all sorts of inefficient "consumer protection" (like the non-compete stuff referenced in OP).

Lots of industry-specific regulations, especially on unfavored industries like petro and nuclear energy, need to be gutted as well.

There is a multi-dimensional aspect to this, but the discussion lately has been on (1) federal spending and (2) leftist economics, both of which diehard MAGA types have been promoting.
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:50 am to
quote:

No, it makes them nativist.


That digression will lead to a discussion on racism, so let's stick to economics.


As I said yesterday, and you refused to respond to; You want billions of people worldwide competing for American jobs, which has the natural and obvious result in lower wages and a reduced quality of life.

You are a globalist.

Has nothing to do with racism. You just want to avoid the obvious while controlling the discussion.
Posted by John Barron
The Mar-a-Lago Club
Member since Sep 2024
17101 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:52 am to
quote:

So what happens to capitalism (aka freedom)?


Stop it. We don't have Capitalism. 2008 should have taught you that. We have a Privatize the Profits, Socialize the losses System or Corporatocracy. H-1B Visas are another example. Importing Non Citizens to keep wages down so Corporations can make more money at the expense of American Citizens. Another way we "Privatize the Profits and Socialize the losses" Capitalism is suppose to be free market. We don't have that in America, it's a Manipulated Market
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
464190 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:52 am to
quote:

I love capitalism, but other countries are cheating and it's no longer true capitalism, so it boils down to if I want government intervention from other countries or my own.


Well that's more of the traditional MAGA/tariff argument, but yes.

Guys like Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell have addressed this issue in detail (in the 70s or 80s by Friedman). It's not a new variable, just FWIW. We just have more competition as free trade being spread globally has made lots of formerly poor nations much less poor.

quote:

The globalization of corporations is such an interesting thing to discuss because, frankly there are so many bad actors in the market that it almost is an economic war.

Well yeah. That's the competition (with added participants every year) at play.
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6505 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:52 am to
Don't stop there. Remove overtime. Remove child labor laws. Remove regulations on the vaccine rober barons

Posted by frogtown
Member since Aug 2017
5605 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:53 am to
quote:

The only absolute true free market in theory would be open borders globalization.


Says who?
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
57778 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:58 am to
quote:

If you're running a tech company and can pay (A) an H1B guy $20k or (B) goldennugget $80K, would you not want option A?


Rog claims that in this situation goldnug just needs to improve himself to compete.

Of course he does not say how someone is supposed to improve themselves to compete with imported labor that will work for a fraction of his income.
Posted by El Segundo Guy
1-866-DHS-2-ICE
Member since Aug 2014
11312 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:58 am to
I'm 50. I remember my grandfather who left home at 16 in the heart of the Depression once told me many years ago in the early 80s that he competed against people in his county for jobs. That my dad competed against people from his region and that I would have to compete against workers on a national scale. He said that my children would have to compete against global workers. He was pretty spot on.
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
6268 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 10:00 am to
quote:

As I said yesterday, and you refused to respond to; You want billions of people worldwide competing for American jobs, which has the natural and obvious result in lower wages and a reduced quality of life.

You are a globalist.


I'm not sure how to take this. We 100% agree.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
464190 posts
Posted on 12/30/24 at 10:02 am to
quote:

The only absolute true free market in theory would be open borders globalization.


Nobody has argued for ancapistan. I don't think anyone has argued for that since GMorgan left us.

We're talking about the state of capitalism as it exists today.

quote:

A state must restrict immigration or else it is not a state.




quote:

The H1B system is a creation of the worst parts of the marriage between the state and private corporate interests. The visas are granted by the state, but the visa holders are beholden to the companies they work for. They must apply to a certain company at a certain wage prior to entry. Their status as a continued resident alien is more or less at the discretion of their employer. Do we agree with this for the most part?

Yes, but we don't agree on the relationship of this to capitalism/less government, I imagine.

This is a carve out to decrease government. It's so convoluted because of that government intervention from which the power is decreasing. When government tries to fix the problems created by government intervention, you often see this Byzantine archetype.

quote:

If it were like the past as your late 19th to early 20th century example, these same people would be allowed to immigrate permanently, immediately.

This was a much more capitalist system and, correspondingly, the period where America made the most growth prior to the world being destroyed in WW2. We became a power during this period of industrialization and development, largely because of the lack of government prohibiting this growth.

From that grew the inequality of freedom, which is where the Labor movement began, ultimately leading to immigration restrictions (largely based in labor protectionism). This friction between "natives" and "foreign competition" has existed since prior to the Revolutionary War.

quote:

They would have much more leverage to find their way in the system as permanent citizens, and move around freely between companies to shop their worth and move up.

So the current system is less free market than what would be under a more free immigration system

Yes, but the "less free market" is the immigration system itself. Not the H1B situation (which cuts from the intervention of the immigration system).

quote:

My reasoning is that the current system is more akin to indentured servitude than it is a truly free market you would see with open immigration.

But it's still more free than an outright prohibition of the opportunity for these people and companies employing them.

quote:

The current system allows corporations to receive artificially lower labor costs, very similar to the illegal immigration system, but for different reasons. This also allows larger corporations with closer ties to the government to benefit from this system, while small companies don’t have the same access.

Again, this is a function of the negative externalities from the larger government intervention (immigration system/laws).

quote:

It’s a bastardization of the free market, and is disingenuous for you to present it otherwise.

Only if you bastardize the framing of the scenario.

Open borders = the most free/capitalist system

Closed immigration = the least free/capitalist system

The H1B carve out moves the needle from the closed to open, which makes it more freedom/capitalist based than the state otherwise. As I said in my initial reply:

quote:

I believe I understand what you're trying to say, and the issue is that you are coming from the position of an overly regulatory state as the natural state, and not describing this overly regulatory State as over intervention in the market as the homeostasis from which we are discussing where policy should flow
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