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re: If both political parties are on the side of Labor, what does this mean for capitalism?
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:46 am to nugget
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:46 am to nugget
quote:
but who isn’t going to want protections? I
I don't disagree with you that they have self interest and in a democracy this creates a move to leftism. I've argued that on here for over a decade now.
Part of this is stating the obvious to have MAGA types admit what they are/support in clear language. It's something they have difficulty with. They prefer esoteric/malleable terms that can change with any argument and avoiding promoting clear, distinct policies (often hiding behind "you don't reveal your position in a negotiation. Art of the Deal!!!).
quote:
I think one thing that you’re probably missing is id guess only maybe 1/3 of people vote mostly on economic issues.
Wasn't the economy the #1 issue in 2024?
1
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:46 am to GeauxtigersMs36
quote:
Companies rarely do anything because it’s the right thing for their workers. History shows us that.
Are workers going out of their way to do the right thing for their companies?
It's a transactional relationship. You can leave your company or start your own company.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:47 am to El Segundo Guy
quote:
It's a transactional relationship. You can leave your company or start your own company.
This is the America I remember.
It wasn't so long ago this was the common philosophy on this board, too.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:48 am to GeauxtigersMs36
quote:
Companies rarely do anything because it’s the right thing for their workers.
And consumers rarely do anything because it's the "right thing" for American workers.
How are you any different than the corporation?
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:48 am to Penrod
quote:
Well, that’s hyperbole. We certainly would profit by reducing regulations, government spending and tax rates, but our current system is basically capitalist.
It’s not at all. We have a mixed economy. But we don’t have anything close to true capitalism.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:49 am to nugget
quote:
Me as well. But, we are in a significant minority in that perspective.
Probably.
Given the option between protection and opportunity, I will choose opportunity every time.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Wasn't the economy the #1 issue in 2024?
Sure, but it was a plurality and not a majority. I’m not googling it, and I’ll take your word if I’m wrong, but I remember most having it at around 35% of the answers for top priority.
We are also talking about an ongoing evolution. I don’t think it was 35% in 1950, I’d assume it was much higher and aggressively trending down.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:52 am to SlowFlowPro
Not reading all of that but I assume you are comparing being pro-American over Indians to the same thing as Dems and their abuse of outdated Unions?
I guess I sort of see where you are going if you ignore that one requires importing more people which not only affects the job market but also strains other resources and services. Housing being one example.
I guess I sort of see where you are going if you ignore that one requires importing more people which not only affects the job market but also strains other resources and services. Housing being one example.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:54 am to SlowFlowPro
Democrats aren’t a party for labor any longer
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:55 am to stout
quote:
Not reading all of that but I assume you are comparing being pro-American over Indians to the same thing as Dems and their abuse of outdated Unions?
There have been people on here effectively arguing for forced collective bargaining to protect professional wages, so yes, it's turning into the same pro-union stances of the DEMs, traditionally.
quote:
I guess I sort of see where you are going if you ignore that one requires importing more people
The immigration/work visa laws themselves are already pro-Labor protectionism.
They want more government to engage in even more pro-Labor protectionism.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:57 am to Proximo
quote:
Democrats aren’t a party for labor any longer
While Other Voters Moved Away From the Democrats, Union Members Shifted Toward Harris in 2024
quote:
Many election analysts observe that Vice President Kamala Harris underperformed in 2024 compared with President Joe Biden in 2020 among key demographic groups, especially the working class. However, the Harris-Walz campaign managed to outperform Biden-Harris among union members. Joe Biden won union members handily in 2020, reversing a decline in union support for Democratic candidates that began in 2016, according to previous Center for American Progress Action Fund research. And, according to the VoteCast survey conducted for The Associated Press (AP) and Fox News, Harris appeared to widen Biden’s margin, with union voters preferring Harris over Donald Trump by 16 percentage points in 2024.
While this improvement in performance among union members was not enough to win Harris the election, these results suggest that Democratic candidates can increase support among union members by appealing to their economic interests through pro-worker policies and appeal to the nonunion working class more broadly by both focusing on economic issues and educating voters about their policies, even as Republicans make it harder for workers to organize.
Unions to Democrats: Don’t blame us for Tuesday’s losses
quote:
Democrats spent months hand-wringing about losing their grasp on rank-and-file union members. On Tuesday that was the least of their worries.
Despite persistent fears that labor might break for former President Donald Trump, exit polling showed Vice President Kamala Harris winning voters in union households 55 to 43 percent, roughly on par with President Joe Biden’s performance in 2020. (A separate survey from NBC News had Harris up 10 points among union voters.)
In fact, union voters were one of the few groups that did not appreciably shift toward Trump and Republicans in what is shaping up to be one of the party’s strongest presidential election cycles in recent memory.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 8:59 am to SlowFlowPro
Is the mechanism which facilitates the labor you are implying is more pro capitalism not a state function in itself?
If it was purely free market without government intervention, access to these labor resources would not exist.
Do you dispute any of this?
If it was purely free market without government intervention, access to these labor resources would not exist.
Do you dispute any of this?
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:01 am to El Segundo Guy
Yeah and again history tells me the all the company cares about is the bottom line. As the worker who gets the job done… yes.
Research labor verses companies over the last 100 years more laws were written to protect the worker from the companies.
Research labor verses companies over the last 100 years more laws were written to protect the worker from the companies.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:03 am to OBReb6
quote:
If it was purely free market without government intervention, access to these labor resources would not exist.
Are you saying that if we didn't have restrictions on immigration, that the free market would not have access to these foreign workers? If not you might need to clarify your stance and ask again.
I don't understand why in a system with less government than what we have now, American companies would not have access to these labor resources. We already lived in that system at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, when people like my great-grandparents came over and flooded urban areas on the East Coast. Chinese immigrants have been doing this for 200 years on the West Coast.
quote:
Is the mechanism which facilitates the labor you are implying is more pro capitalism not a state function in itself?
What we have is the state function (immigration laws) that limits pure capitalism in the freedom of Labor participation abroad and domestically. This one program is a slight pull back from this general regulatory scheme. Make no mistake that this is all a function of government and removing this program just increases the power and regulatory authority of government over our economy, which means a decrease in capitalist state.
I believe I understand what you're trying to say, and the issue is that you are coming from the position of an overly regulatory state as the natural state, and not describing this overly regulatory State as over intervention in the market as the homeostasis from which we are discussing where policy should flow
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:05 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
There have been people on here effectively arguing for forced collective bargaining to protect professional wages,
How so? By stating the threshold for H-1B should be raised?
I have avoided this board the past week because it was all H-1B melts so I am not sure what all the stances taken were.
Clearly, I of all people here, am not against legal immigration, but there should be limits on H-1B. I see how you can spin that to protecting wages but I think that's a fairly narrow view of it.
BTW, one topic not discussed is the cost to employee Americans beyond just wages. The taxes and insurance regulations alone are burdensome. Correcting that alone could impact H-1B. I know you own a business like I do so you understand that.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:05 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Originally MAGA was sold as a limited version of this just for Americans at the lowest end of the economic spectrum who were "left behind" by our economy developing beyond their prior capabilities.
When you start a premise that is wrong, the whole theory is bunk. Since your premise is very wrong, I stopped reading.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:06 am to GeauxtigersMs36
quote:
Yeah and again history tells me the all the company cares about is the bottom line
Thats all they need to be concerned with.
Same with workers, youre there to help yourself.
Self interest is a staple of capitalism and markets. You want the best for yourself, the company wants the best for itself. So does the consumer.
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:06 am to OBReb6
quote:
If it was purely free market without government intervention, access to these labor resources would not exist.
If you're running a tech company and can pay (A) an H1B guy $20k or (B) goldennugget $80K, would you not want option A?
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:13 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
There have been people on here effectively arguing for forced collective bargaining to protect professional wages, so yes, it's turning into the same pro-union stances of the DEMs, traditionally.
I brought this up because I believe (and there's historical precedent) that American Corporations will not do the right thing when it comes to American workers and due to that (failing the social handshake that the American Military afforded them) sort of needs to be compelled.
And to be fair I hate using the word compelled because it is very anti-conservative (I recognize this) and it's actually something that currently im trying to work through personally as it challenges my own conservative thoughts. Quite frankly, do we just allow Corporations to circumvent American society for the almighty dollar until its not America anymore?
Posted on 12/30/24 at 9:18 am to SlowFlowPro
I'm having a lot of mixed feelings. I love capitalism, but other countries are cheating and it's no longer true capitalism, so it boils down to if I want government intervention from other countries or my own. I can make the argument that tariffs mirroring laws/regulations of command economies is not anti-capitalism, as companies should not be selling us inferior products at higher margins to appease Europe.
The globalization of corporations is such an interesting thing to discuss because, frankly there are so many bad actors in the market that it almost is an economic war.
The globalization of corporations is such an interesting thing to discuss because, frankly there are so many bad actors in the market that it almost is an economic war.
This post was edited on 12/30/24 at 9:20 am
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