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re: I can't understand why the incident in Waco (David Koresh) is a tragedy
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:05 am to SherluckHomey
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:05 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
That's the best argument so far but counterpoint: the tragedy is actually the moment these people joined a cult. The subsequent consequences of their actions isn't tragic.
A 2 year old didn't join a cult.
1
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:09 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
the tragedy is actually the moment these people joined a cult. The subsequent consequences of their actions isn't tragic.
I see what you mean. Many of them were just children who were being obedient to fricked up parents, so we can't say that they had any other choice.
The others did make a choice and I see what you are saying in that a line gets crossed at that point.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:20 am to the808bass
quote:
A 2 year old didn't join a cult
True, but the actions of the FBI didn't nescessitate the death of that 2 year old.
Maybe I can be accused of splitting hairs but I don't believe the actions of the FBI, however misguided, caused a tragedy.
David Koresh caused the death of those children and therefore you can label the day those people joined that cult as the real tragedy.
ETA: you can also see in my OP that I did label the death of the children as a tragedy. The question my OP is asking is why do we consider the tragic part of this story as a result of FBI actions when it's clear that the negative outcome was directly caused by the cult leader.
This post was edited on 2/9/17 at 5:25 am
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:22 am to SherluckHomey
So if a minority family is sitting in their home and they have a member of the family who is participating in gang activity and the police rush the home and kill everyone in it, it's not a tragedy because the gang activity is what necessitated and precipitated the action of the police.
This post was edited on 2/9/17 at 5:23 am
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:25 am to the808bass
It would also be ok for the police to pump in a gas that's outlawed for military use (that happens to be flammable)?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:26 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
Don't get me wrong, the children being burned by their parents is definitely a tragedy
So you do understand how it is a tragedy then?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:27 am to FightinTigersDammit
We're charitably ignoring the Lon Horiuchi elephant in the room and all the other stupid government acts and focusing on Sherluck's flawed argument.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:27 am to the808bass
quote:
So if a minority family is sitting in their home and they have a member of the family who is participating in gang activity and the police rush the home and kill everyone in it, it's not a tragedy
Your comparison isn't legitimate as the FBI didn't try to kill anyone. The deaths of the members was a direct result of the actions taken by their leader. Koresh started that fire with the help of his followers. If criminals want to kill themselves rather than go to jail then I'm not going to stop them nor am I going to shed a tear.
I'm not sure all of you guys are familiar with the events that happened in Waco.
This post was edited on 2/9/17 at 5:28 am
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:27 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
Your comparison isn't legitimate as the FBI didn't try to kill anyone. The deaths of the members was a direct result of the actions taken by their leader. I'm not sure all of you guys are familiar with the events that happened in Waco.
I didn't say the police tried to kill anyone. I'm saying they ended up dead. Tragedy or no?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:28 am to SherluckHomey
The children committed no crimes, they were victims, an important distinction. The point was made several times that Koresh was the target of LOE and could have been arrested outside the compound multiple times. There was no reason for this to have happened.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:29 am to the808bass
quote:
focusing on Sherluck's flawed argument.
I wouldn't label my argument as flawed till you read my response to your invalid equivocation.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:30 am to the808bass
quote:
I didn't say the police tried to kill anyone
quote:
and the police rush the home and kill everyone in it, i
Huh?
quote:
I'm saying they ended up dead. Tragedy or n
So the criminals died due to their own actions? No. Not a tragedy.
This post was edited on 2/9/17 at 5:33 am
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:32 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
SherluckHomey
So what do you consider the results of the battle at Little Big Horn. You had a bunch of men die because they followed a man who many believe had a "cultist" attitude about Indians as Koresh did about the government. I've read several articles saying Armstrong was so adamant in killing Indians they he defied military protocol by not waiting for more support and just rushed in anyway and we know how that turned out.
So, if you're talking "cultist" non tragedies I guess this would be one also.
I won't even bring up Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre. I'm sure those "cultists" knew they were going to drink the kool-aid and die before going there but they went anyway huh?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:33 am to SherluckHomey
Imprecise wording on my part. Apologies. They don't mean to kill the other family members but commit actions which contribute to the family members dying. Tragedy or no?
You're trying to deconstruct an analogy to avoid the parallelism in which you feel sympathy for a minority family and none for a religious adherent. It's ok.
You're trying to deconstruct an analogy to avoid the parallelism in which you feel sympathy for a minority family and none for a religious adherent. It's ok.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:34 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:
won't even bring up Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre. I'm sure those "cultists" knew they were going to drink the kool-aid and die before going there but they went anyway huh?
I wouldn't bring it up if I were you either seeing as it's possible the Jonestown people didnt realize that they were drinking poison. The Branch Divideons helped Koresh spread gasoline throughout the compound. They were active members in their own suicides.
I don't consider that a tragedy.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:36 am to SherluckHomey
Wanna bet if Ed Meese did something resulting in the deaths of as many little black kids that there wouldn't be yearly observances of the anniversary and monuments in several places?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:37 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
I don't see it as a failure of the FBI or Janet Reno. The sexual abuse of children cannot be allowed to continue. The fact that a child rapist burned himself doesn't even register on my tragedy radar.
So rape is bad but allowing him to effectively murder the children is ok? How is that not a tragedy completely ignoring the ATF/FBIs incompetence?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:38 am to the808bass
quote:
you feel sympathy for a minority family and none for a religious adherent
None of these feels you are attributing to me are real. I don't know who you think I am but I promise you my argument is based on logically thinking it through.
You can put descriptive qualifiers in any example you like but when you assume my state of mind because one is a minority and the other are religious participants, you fail to acompish your goals. You distract yourself from the argument.
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:38 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
The Branch Divideons helped Koresh spread gasoline throughout the compound.
So you know for sure that every man, woman and child at the compound knew exactly beforehand what their fate would be if they had a faceoff with the law?
Posted on 2/9/17 at 5:39 am to SherluckHomey
quote:
I wouldn't describe these people as innocent.
Children are universally understood to be innocent. We even treat ISIS children wearing suicide vests as innocents.
You must not understand what you just typed.
As for the larger issue - Clinton's admin wanted a big splash - simply arresting Koresch to stop his activities was not nearly 'stop the presses' enough. I'm pretty sure they didn't go into the action with the intent to burn the children alive, but they set up the confrontation that pretty predictably could take that turn.
It was part of their scheme to initiate the great gun grab.
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