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re: History of US and NATO Lies and Provocations

Posted on 6/8/25 at 4:31 pm to
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 4:31 pm to
quote:

But The reality is that nations can make plans, agreements, treaties, pacts, etc., but no one should expect that any of them would survive beyond an average of 30 or 35 years.


Within the context of international relations, the assurances meant nothing because nothing was put to paper. The sheer fact that you can agree to any contract which has stipulations on how you leave and with penalties if parties violate it is extremely important in geopolitics.

quote:


The people that make these agreements in no way can guarantee that successive generations are going to honor them.



And? If you are suggesting that Russia wouldn't have wanted a very detailed arrangement which outlined their exact relationship with NATO, they absolutely would, even if the arrangement was set to expire in 30 years. The fact that populations or ruling parties can change their mind is not of consequence because in the case of a treaty or agreement, all parties are notified.

In particular, your cynical view might represent how human feeling can change from generation to generation, but the goal of international politics is to make agreements which can withstand such changes. Several successful treaties are testament to that and is ultimately the point of any negotiations.
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
24857 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 4:40 pm to

Posted by EphesianArmor
Member since Mar 2025
4839 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 4:49 pm to
quote:

Nothing but a money laundering grift now.


Always has been.

And so has been the UN and a truckload of other acronymatic agencies created out of thin air and budgeted gazillions to "protect muh-Democracy" since WW2.

Posted by jonnyanony
Member since Nov 2020
15217 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 4:50 pm to
quote:

At least share which AI bot spit this out for you.


ChatFSB
Posted by LightHeat
Member since Oct 2020
562 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 5:08 pm to
quote:

This post provides a comprehensive overview of NATO’s eastward expansion ....


Text of the Budapest Memorandum ( Link to Signed Copy of Budapest Memorandum in UN Repository.)

quote:

Ukraine, Russian Federation, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and United States of America Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

Budapest, 5 December 1994
Entry into force: 5 December 1994 by signature
Authentic texts: English, Russian and Ukrainian
Registration with the Secretariat of the United Nations: Ukraine, 2 October 2014

Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America,

Welcoming the Accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon state,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces, Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation., the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nonhem Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the Principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the NonProliferation ofNuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim ofan act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in whlch nuclear weapons are used.

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffinn, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation ofNuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature. Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English, and Russian languages.

Posted by Rohan Gravy
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2017
20728 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 7:28 pm to
quote:

I take it you have sympathy for the Chinese too,

since we’re setting up shop right on top of them.


I take it you are unwilling to answer my question
Posted by Tantal
Member since Sep 2012
19821 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 7:32 pm to
Joke's on Putin. His Ukraine invasion gave him another 800 miles of border to defend with Finland.
Posted by northshorebamaman
Mackinac Island
Member since Jul 2009
38341 posts
Posted on 6/8/25 at 9:04 pm to
quote:


Joke's on Putin. His Ukraine invasion gave him another 800 miles of border to defend with Finland.
And had he or if he succeedes in annexing Ukraine, it just adds four new NATO members to Russia's border.
Posted by Tantal
Member since Sep 2012
19821 posts
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:40 am to
quote:

And had he or if he succeedes in annexing Ukraine, it just adds four new NATO members to Russia's border.

Ukraine itself isn't the goal. The Bessarabian Gap and Polish Gap are the goals. He just has to go through Ukraine to get to them. Militarily, Ukraine is weaker than Poland. NATO aside, and absent nukes, I think Poland would mudhole Russia on their own on their own turf. Russia lacks the logistical chain to project power that far.
Posted by ReeseBobby
Comanche TX
Member since Oct 2021
312 posts
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:51 am to
Russias struggles in Ukraine have shown how weak Russia truly is. I mean ukraines gdp is the equivalent of Arkansas.
Posted by Tantal
Member since Sep 2012
19821 posts
Posted on 6/12/25 at 12:54 am to
quote:

ukraines gdp is the equivalent of Arkansas.

Russia's GDP is less than that of Texas. Nukes aside, they're a paper tiger against a modern Western military.
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