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Message
Here's why you can't currently conclude the vaccines are effective
Posted on 9/13/21 at 2:52 pm
Posted on 9/13/21 at 2:52 pm
**This is not meant to be an anti-vax sentiment in general, however it does question the supposed evidence to support vaccine's efficacy, and more importantly the vaccine mandates. If you want to get the vaccine, please do your own research and make the best decision for yourself.
If you downvote, I assume that means you’ll respond with some kind of counterpoint.
1. There is currently no standardized test for immunity. The CDC has determined that the test for anti-bodies is not a viable determinant for immunity. At this time, we don't have a standardized way to measure one's immunity regardless of vax status. This alone makes it almost impossible to determine the efficacy of the vaccines
2. They don't bother to determine one's prior interaction with the virus prior to vaccination. Though a positive antibody test doesn't determine one's immunity (per the CDC), without a means to definitively determine one's prior interaction with covid before vaccination, we have no way of proving one's immunity is due to the vaccine vs their natural immunity from prior infection. Ultimately, positive outcomes end up getting attributed to the vaccine vs natural immunity because of this.
3. Vaccinated people are on a different timeline than the unvaccinated. Covid has been present in the US since AT LEAST Jan 2020 when the first positive case was confirmed. It's reasonable to conclude it was here prior to that, but we'll use that date as the starting point of the covid timeline. If you're unvaccinated, that means you've had the chance of exposure for the past 20 months. The vaccines haven't been available to the general public but since late Dec 2020 (early Jan depending on your part of the country). Currently there are roughly 175 million "fully vaxxed" individuals in the US. Over half of them have been vaxxed in just the past 4 months. That means the majority of the vaxxed population hasn't existed but for roughly 5 months, some more, some less. Since your vax status erases your prior history with covid (no baseline infection test prior to injection) your average unvaxxed person has had the chance of being exposed to covid around 4x longer than the average vaxxed person. If you take two people with similar immune systems and routines, the one who has had 4x the amount of time to be exposed will be more likely to get sick. Again since we don't know a person's prior infection status before their vaccine, we can't determine if their acting immunity is from the vaccine, or a prior recovery from covid as well.
These three reasons are meant to counter the notion that "well 90% of the people getting sick are unvaccinated" narrative. That is a wholly incomplete statistic that lacks multiple variables required to make the conclusion that the vaccine is why those vaccinated people aren't hospitalized or dying.
If you downvote, I assume that means you’ll respond with some kind of counterpoint.
1. There is currently no standardized test for immunity. The CDC has determined that the test for anti-bodies is not a viable determinant for immunity. At this time, we don't have a standardized way to measure one's immunity regardless of vax status. This alone makes it almost impossible to determine the efficacy of the vaccines
2. They don't bother to determine one's prior interaction with the virus prior to vaccination. Though a positive antibody test doesn't determine one's immunity (per the CDC), without a means to definitively determine one's prior interaction with covid before vaccination, we have no way of proving one's immunity is due to the vaccine vs their natural immunity from prior infection. Ultimately, positive outcomes end up getting attributed to the vaccine vs natural immunity because of this.
3. Vaccinated people are on a different timeline than the unvaccinated. Covid has been present in the US since AT LEAST Jan 2020 when the first positive case was confirmed. It's reasonable to conclude it was here prior to that, but we'll use that date as the starting point of the covid timeline. If you're unvaccinated, that means you've had the chance of exposure for the past 20 months. The vaccines haven't been available to the general public but since late Dec 2020 (early Jan depending on your part of the country). Currently there are roughly 175 million "fully vaxxed" individuals in the US. Over half of them have been vaxxed in just the past 4 months. That means the majority of the vaxxed population hasn't existed but for roughly 5 months, some more, some less. Since your vax status erases your prior history with covid (no baseline infection test prior to injection) your average unvaxxed person has had the chance of being exposed to covid around 4x longer than the average vaxxed person. If you take two people with similar immune systems and routines, the one who has had 4x the amount of time to be exposed will be more likely to get sick. Again since we don't know a person's prior infection status before their vaccine, we can't determine if their acting immunity is from the vaccine, or a prior recovery from covid as well.
These three reasons are meant to counter the notion that "well 90% of the people getting sick are unvaccinated" narrative. That is a wholly incomplete statistic that lacks multiple variables required to make the conclusion that the vaccine is why those vaccinated people aren't hospitalized or dying.
This post was edited on 9/13/21 at 5:08 pm
Posted on 9/13/21 at 2:54 pm to HighTide_ATL
All the evidence I need to know the vaccine isn't effective is seeing vaccinated people, yeah Joe that means you, still wearing masks even if the masks were effective.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 2:57 pm to HighTide_ATL
quote:Negative. It doesn't even mean "you've been exposed to covid for" 20 seconds.
If you're unvaccinated, that means you've been exposed to covid for 20 months.
If someone in your household came down with it and you were in close proximity to them, "that means you've been exposed."
Posted on 9/13/21 at 2:58 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Negative. It doesn't even mean "you've been exposed to covid for" 20 seconds.
If someone in your household came down with it and you were in close proximity to them, "that means you've been exposed."
I think you know what I meant, but I'll reword it to be more accurate
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:01 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Negative. It doesn't even mean "you've been exposed to covid for" 20 seconds.
If someone in your household came down with it and you were in close proximity to them, "that means you've been exposed."
After 1 year and 9 months, minimum, everyone in the country has been in proximity of someone carrying the virus.
Don't forget a large number of carriers are asymptomatic.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:01 pm to Homesick Tiger
quote:Indeed.... or the push by vaccinated folks for the unvaxxed to take the jab(s). Hard to raise issue with those points HT.
All the evidence I need to know the vaccine isn't effective is seeing vaccinated people, yeah Joe that means you, still wearing masks even if the masks were effective.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:05 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
If someone in your household came down with it and you were in close proximity to them, "that means you've been exposed."
And that would mean what, from a clinical perspective?
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:05 pm to HighTide_ATL
The goal posts could be 10 yards out but, nobody has the leg to make it.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:09 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:Were that factual, the corollary would hold everyone has been exposed and therefore either possess inherent CV19 immunity, or have acquired it through exposure.
After 1 year and 9 months, minimum, everyone in the country has been in proximity of someone carrying the virus.
Which of course raises the question, where are the new infections coming from? Right?
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:12 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
Don't forget a large number of carriers are asymptomatic.
Naw, fam. That was a lie to pretend we couldn’t tell who was sick.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:13 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Were that factual, the corollary would hold everyone has been exposed and therefore either possess inherent CV19 immunity, or have acquired it through exposure.
The overemphasis on asymptomatic cases early on led many people to wrongfully conclude “I already had Covid.”
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:14 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Were that factual, the corollary would hold everyone has been exposed and therefore either possess inherent CV19 immunity, or have acquired it through exposure.
Which of course raises the question, where are the new infections coming from? Right?
How many colds have you had?
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:54 pm to the808bass
Asymptomatic people exist. I've had confirmed at least one confirmed covid case (1st time is believed to have been a false negative) and yet I exhibited zero symptoms. No clue how many people exactly are asymptomatic, but it presents an issue for determining who has actually had covid and who hasn't, especially when you consider they are not establishing your prior infection status before the vaccine is given
This post was edited on 9/13/21 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 9/13/21 at 3:57 pm to HighTide_ATL
quote:
Asymptomatic people exist.
Sure. But they aren’t 40%-60% of Covid cases like we were told in the beginning. It’s closer to 15%.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 4:09 pm to HighTide_ATL
NOt just asymptomatic, but a large percentage of people have symptoms mild enough to essentially be called such.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 4:46 pm to the808bass
My Grandson has covid right now, he has slight congestion that could be allergies. I disagree with your WAG of 15%.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 4:49 pm to HighTide_ATL
quote:
Ultimately, positive outcomes end up getting attributed to the vaccine vs natural immunity because of this.
Been saying that we will not get past this pandemic until everyone catches, recovers and develops natural immunity from COVID regardless of vaxx status.
Posted on 9/13/21 at 4:58 pm to BillRose
quote:
I disagree with your WAG of 15%.
I’ve seen several studies at 20% and one at 17%. What’s your wild arse guess based on?
Posted on 9/13/21 at 5:00 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
NOt just asymptomatic, but a large percentage of people have symptoms mild enough to essentially be called such
This. If your symptoms are so mild that you don’t even really “feel” sick or your functionally unaffected, I’d say that’s asymptomatic.
Not sure where the 15% came from
Posted on 9/13/21 at 8:02 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Which of course raises the question, where are the new infections coming from? Right?
Delta? (both vaxxed and unvaxxed)
This hits a bit on the point of the asymptomatic breakthroughs and breakthrough cases which do not require hospitalization nor cause death and none of that being tracked in the US.
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