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re: Great news! Azithromycin & Chloroquine: victory lap
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:52 am to tide06
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:52 am to tide06
quote:
The study was really bad based on the documentation in terms of how it was run. That’s likely because it was handled by sleep deprived clinicians racing to save triaged dying patients. The good news is the combo therapy is safe based on previous approvals and is bringing back the at risk patients who would’ve died or needed a vent. This is clear based on real world findings. It doesn’t need to be 100% effective, most approved therapies aren’t. If it causes no harm and is helping the worst patients we have a winner. Some patients will die but if we hurry 100k won’t and neither will our economy.
Exactly...this combo is only being given to terminal or near-terminal patents.
If you’re not in that cohort, you have to tough it out at this point.
0
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:52 am to uway
quote:It was a very flawed study. Having said that, there are many other equally positive (albeit anecdotal) accounts in circulation. We simply need to confirm efficacy, and then evaluate comparative efficacy vs options such as Resdemivir.
If not, what's the relevance of what you said.
That process would normally take a year or more. Given the focus in this instance, we could have decent answers in a matter of several weeks.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:54 am to Shoulderchoke
quote:
Now can you post this in English?
It appears to work in this very very limited study and work better with a zpack in this very very limited study. Since the drugs are not overtly dangerous, it can be used if the person needs it bad enough.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:56 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Given the focus in this instance, we could have decent answers in a matter of several weeks.
Sooner.
The combo already has enough confidence that it’s about to be the primary treatment for those most at risk or exhibiting the worst symptoms.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 8:56 am to oleyeller
quote:
You better watch it posting actual facts.
It's kind of sad. Most of this place tends to have pretty reasonable and reasonably intelligent people who appreciate a thought out argument with any amount of merit.
In one of the other threads, uway I think suggested he didn't even really care what physicians thought, so long as some data showed this would calm panic then it should be given to everyone to calm panic.
We are living in a strange time.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:00 am to Eli Goldfinger
It's a wonder we ever get drugs to market in today's environment. If Aspirin were to try to get approved today? Never happen.
We do have to make sure they are safe and effective. But in this environment? Cut the freaking doublespeak and just say whether the stuff has promise or not. We have had quite enough doom and gloom.
We do have to make sure they are safe and effective. But in this environment? Cut the freaking doublespeak and just say whether the stuff has promise or not. We have had quite enough doom and gloom.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:01 am to Hopeful Doc
This Wuhan Virus isn’t giving us the opportunity for a multi-year study with perfect method.
What we have is confirmation of efficacy in large enough numbers from hospitals around the country to confidently move forward with this combination of existing meds as a viable treatment.
Will it be poorly tolerated by some patients?
Yes, most certainly.
But there will be time enough to sort that out and squabble later on.
What we have is confirmation of efficacy in large enough numbers from hospitals around the country to confidently move forward with this combination of existing meds as a viable treatment.
Will it be poorly tolerated by some patients?
Yes, most certainly.
But there will be time enough to sort that out and squabble later on.
This post was edited on 3/21/20 at 9:05 am
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:06 am to Hopeful Doc
quote:
he didn't even really care what physicians thought, so long as some data showed this would calm panic then it should be given to everyone to calm panic
Exactly... everyone is hoping for the cure. I opened the thread excited, only to see some random bs site with like 36 people studdied... with the op saying "it is confirmed, we have a cure". Leading people to believe that. It is okay to be hopeful, but mot okay to be misleading. This is not a cure yet, nor anywhere close. I hope it is soon though, and appreciate people like you with actual facts.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:07 am to Hopeful Doc
We have terrible data and not making data driven decesions it seems
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:07 am to Hopeful Doc
quote:
The onus isn't on the reader to hypothesize why someone died. It's actually on the writer to discuss why it's relevant or irrelevant and discuss all of the particularly relevant results.
May I ask why you are interested in the positive aspects of this extremely limited observation and not concerned about the methods where they chose not to report the results from the really sick and discuss the patient that died?
Hopeful doc, if the primary mechanism is a reduction of the virus and a reduction in immune system overreaction, it would make sense that this drug will not be the answer for people who are already in full ARDS, would it not?
A NY doctor was talking about this on the Laura Ingraham show.
Seems like this will be most effective on high risk patients before they progress to a critical stage.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:08 am to Eli Goldfinger
quote:
This Wuhan Virus isn’t giving us the opportunity for a multi-year study with perfect method.
No one gives a frick about a multi-year trial. 20 days would be plenty with a tack-on 30 and 90d mortality published later. If you read this and don't think the methods were dogshit, you don't read many studies. The amount of virus in the nose is largely irrelevant. The outcomes are what matter.
quote:
What we have is confirmation of efficacy in large enough numbers from hospitals around the country to confidently move forward with this combination of existing meds as a viable treatment.
I disagree. See the summary before. I'd basically say my position is about that of UpToDate. I'd say it's probably safer enough to try if you need to try something, and that's about the best I can say for it.
quote:
Will it be poorly tolerated by some patients?
Yes, most certainly.
But there will be time enough to sort that out and squabble later on.
You seem to be acting as if this is the only treatment option and that everyone needs treatment. If so, I'll again refer you to the UpToDate article (in the link) where they discuss the other trials available.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:10 am to thelawnwranglers
quote:
We have terrible data and not making data driven decesions it seems
We do have data.
And we are making decisions based on it.
The combination of meds is largely effective and safe.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:14 am to Eli Goldfinger
I cannot wait for a major hospital to share it's data on this combo and several of the other potential treatments.
This post was edited on 3/21/20 at 9:14 am
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:14 am to Hopeful Doc
quote:
You seem to be acting as if this is the only treatment option and that everyone needs treatment.
Please point me to where I wrote that this is the only treatment.
It IS showing the best combo of promise and availability.
And I wrote multiple times that only those patients exhibiting the worst & most dangerous symptoms will receive treatment.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:15 am to Eli Goldfinger
Our president is tweeting about Azithromycin & Chloroquine!
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:16 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
if the primary mechanism is a reduction of the virus and a reduction in immune system overreaction, it would make sense that this drug will not be the answer for people who are already in full ARDS, would it not?
Steroids also reduce immune system overreaction, they are associated with poorer outcomes. It is unclear whether only the illest of the ill got them and thus were more likely to die or whether something else about them caused the patients to die.
NSAIDs also reduce inflammation (an immune response) and are also associated with a poorer response (data not sufficient to hold their use at this point).
So I disagree with the notion that simply reducing the immune response should lead to a better outcome. Medicine is weird. Logical things and academic hypotheses don't particularly play out in the real world.
quote:
Seems like this will be most effective on high risk patients before they progress to a critical stage.
Agree wholeheartedly. I'm not talking about holding them in people shy of circling the drain. Moreso that when a 25 year old has a runny nose and a 101F fever, he really isn't any better off with it than in his room playing video games and eating chicken soup.
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:18 am to Tacoma Tiger
quote:
FDA is allowing compassionate use. Not the same as approval.
So, will the hallowed FDA take full credit for a ton of folks who will croak...because the FDA "strained at a gnat and swallowed a came"?
This is exactly why we ought to thank God for a conceited, billionaire NY playboy that likes to see his name in big letter all over the place and brags that he can "grab them by the pu#@*. Thank you DJT!
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:21 am to Freight Joker
quote:
Our president is tweeting about Azithromycin & Chloroquine!
Boom
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:21 am to Eli Goldfinger
quote:
Please point me to where I wrote that this is the only treatment
You did not say that. That's why I led with "you seem to..." It was my assumption, which is why I tried to point out that it was my interpretation of your position. I was wrong. My apologies.
quote:
It IS showing the best combo of promise and availability.
I disagree. I have seen no outcome data for it, and I have looked. Reducing secretion in a nasal swab in an unknown degree of sick patient isn't really useful to me. I won't base treatment decisions off of that.
quote:
And I wrote multiple times that only those patients exhibiting the worst & most dangerous symptoms will receive treatment.
Didn't notice that. It's hard for me to attribute other posts to people while reading one. My apologies again
Posted on 3/21/20 at 9:22 am to Hopeful Doc
quote:
I'm not talking about holding them in people shy of circling the drain. Moreso that when a 25 year old has a runny nose and a 101F fever, he really isn't any better off with it than in his room playing video games and eating chicken soup.
These folks won’t get the treatment.
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