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re: For those who have supported Putin and Russia in the Ukraine War
Posted on 9/1/26 at 5:53 pm to IAmNERD
Posted on 9/1/26 at 5:53 pm to IAmNERD
quote:
He kept asking when Russia would get their invitation, instead of applying, and stated Russia shouldn't have to stand in line with countries that didn't matter.
As a nuclear power, he had a pocket full if aces, while countries that didn't matter had 7-2 offsuit. He wasn't wrong.
1
Posted on 9/1/26 at 5:56 pm to texas tortilla
quote:
usa is using ukraine as a proxy against russia just as israel is using usa as a proxy against iran. both wars never should have happened. i don't blame putin for anything. all we had to tell russia was ukraine would never be in nato and there wouldn't have been a war. we couldn't tell them that because usa wanted the war. usa wants a broken up russia they can control.
This guy gets it.
Posted on 9/1/26 at 6:34 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
As a nuclear power, he had a pocket full if aces, while countries that didn't matter had 7-2 offsuit. He wasn't wrong.
But, he was. He wasn't getting Russia in without the full vetting process. He knew that, so he was "negotiating" in bad faith.
So the "Putin wanted to join NATO" point is moot and ridiculous on its face.
Posted on 9/1/26 at 7:34 pm to IAmNERD
quote:
But, he was. He wasn't getting Russia in without the full vetting process. He knew that, so he was "negotiating" in bad faith.
So the "Putin wanted to join NATO" point is moot and ridiculous on its face.
I don't agree with you here. Warren Christopher lied to Yeltsin back in the Clinton administration about not expanding NATO in the aftermath of the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union. GWU archivesThen, NATO was put to Russia's doorstep, and done in a way that was, from a Russian perspective, utterly humiliating.
Enter Putin, who was a much stronger leader than Yeltsin. He asks Clinton, and Clinton doesn't outright say no. Putin has cards, and plays them, because he saw what happened with Yeltsin, and how he tried the good faith effort.
He tried a different negotiating tactic, sure. It wasn't in worse faith than what the Clinton admin did, though.
Posted on 9/1/26 at 7:37 pm to theballguy
quote:
What are your honest opinions on him backing Iran?
Putin was getting a lot of his drones through Iran. You think he is going to denounce a major part of his arsenal? Russia is running into a problem because of this.
Posted on 9/1/26 at 7:58 pm to B747Tiger
quote:
It’s weird as frick to me that Americans support Russia against Ukraine.
They’re the type that would’ve turned in the Wolverines in Red Dawn. shite Americans
I almost agree with you, but I can see an argument for supporting Russia. That would be that the New World Order types want Russia defeated in order to clear the way for assimilation of Eastern Europe and Central Asia into the NWO. And that is something to be despised.
Posted on 9/1/26 at 8:09 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
and how he tried the good faith effort.
"When do we get our invite circumventing the process in place" is not in good faith.
But you're bringing up Yeltsin and "what he heard" at a NATO meeting as if it has any relevance to Putin and NATO/US relationships post Putin's ascension. So you aren't debating in good faith either.
This post was edited on 9/1/26 at 8:10 pm
Posted on 9/2/26 at 7:39 am to IAmNERD
quote:
But you're bringing up Yeltsin and "what he heard" at a NATO meeting as if it has any relevance to Putin and NATO/US relationships post Putin's ascension. So you aren't debating in good faith either.
No, here's my my train of thought. Putin doesn't exist in a vacuum. He has 10 years of Post-Soviet history to look upon by the time he comes to power. The Yeltsin/Christopher backstory is pertinent to the conversation.
Yeltsin was told the US wasn't going to expand NATO eastward. Not just what he heard, but what US cables explicitly state. He acquiesced, and took that in good faith. The Clinton administration lied to him, as has been admitted in declassified documents.
Putin comes in in June of 2020, and a month post ascension he brings the topic back up. Clinton waffles, NATO members don't like it. Bush admin comes in. Putin tries different tactics. This is now seen as being in bad faith. But we don't hold the US accountable for its part of negotiations, it typically devolves into Putin is a bad faith actor.
At this point, it doesn't really matter. Both sides have pissed each other off to such a degree that the relationship is probably forever severed. And honestly, the Russians think they're better off without the NATO involvement.
Regardless, I appreciate the conversation. It's an interesting topic.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 7:45 am to theballguy
For one Russia is a historical ally of Iran since the 70s or since the irgc.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 7:49 am to RoyalAir
quote:
Yeltsin was told the US wasn't going to expand NATO eastward.
Really?
Can you provide a link to that information? I’d always read it was BS.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:01 am to DeBoar
quote:
Why exactly do you support Ukraine over Russia?
Because Russia is an ally of China and Iran and has been long before this? I am against China. I know your feeble Wal Mart greeter mind has trouble digesting that.
PT in a nutshell:
Durrrrrr we need to boots on the ground against Iran but Iran’s proxy Russia is are friend !
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 8:03 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:02 am to theballguy
Did anyone support putin and Russia?
Most of us just didn't like funding a war that had nothing to do with us. We involved ourselves in nearly every aspect.
The funding of that war led to a lot of us disdaining zelensky and by extension, Ukraine. ... since every time he fricking came over here our politicians would worship him, and we'd end up sending billions of dollars overseas that weren't even being tracked.
As far as Russia supporting Iran. It would be weird if they didn't. Our involvement in the Ukraine/Russia war is the main reason why that war is still going on when it probably would've ended years ago. Their petty retaliation should've been expected. I don't like it.. but it's expected nonetheless.
Most of us just didn't like funding a war that had nothing to do with us. We involved ourselves in nearly every aspect.
The funding of that war led to a lot of us disdaining zelensky and by extension, Ukraine. ... since every time he fricking came over here our politicians would worship him, and we'd end up sending billions of dollars overseas that weren't even being tracked.
As far as Russia supporting Iran. It would be weird if they didn't. Our involvement in the Ukraine/Russia war is the main reason why that war is still going on when it probably would've ended years ago. Their petty retaliation should've been expected. I don't like it.. but it's expected nonetheless.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:06 am to Plx1776
quote:
The funding of that war led to a lot of us disdaining zelensky and by extension, Ukraine. ... since every time he fricking came over here our politicians would worship him, and we'd end up sending billions of dollars overseas that weren't even being tracked.
How many American soldiers has Z gotten killed?
Now do Netenyahu.
quote:
As far as Russia supporting Iran. It would be weird if they didn't.
Right. Because they are willingly part of the BRICS bloc which you seem to prefer.
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 8:33 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:31 am to doubleb
quote:
can you provide a link to that information?
GWU archives
That's a decent start. I posted it earlier in the thread.
You heard it was BS because Warren Christopher accused Yeltsin of being drunk when Christopher told Yeltsin this. But the declassified cables support Yeltsin's claim.
I vividly remember the mid 90s, when Yeltsin and Clinton were essentially depicted as being drinking buddies, and getting on quite well.
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