Started By
Message

re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…

Posted on 12/13/25 at 9:38 pm to
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/13/25 at 9:38 pm to
quote:

However, the fact remains that the Roosevelt Administration did not share the full extent of the intelligence it possessed with military commanders.

So clarify, is anything other than full extent of the messages we intercepted being sent to field commanders... a conspiracy?

At this point I'm unsure if your insanity is that Kimmel and Short should have been getting messages on how we broke the Japanese codes...
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
23495 posts
Posted on 12/13/25 at 9:54 pm to
quote:

So clarify, is anything other than full extent of the messages we intercepted being sent to field commanders… a conspiracy?

At this point I'm unsure if your insanity is that Kimmel and Short should have been getting messages on how we broke the Japanese codes...


So clarify, at this point…

… I am sure you have no clue what you are even arguing about.






Posted by tigger1
Member since Mar 2005
3742 posts
Posted on 12/13/25 at 10:19 pm to
Even I do not know what he is trying to say in that post.

Are you saying Doug should not have been getting the magic interceptions or that Kimmel and Short should have gotten the messages also?

Or should have Admiral James O. Richardson received them also?

This goes to why Admiral Turner thought Admiral Kimmel was getting the magic interceptions. Which later had to be corrected.

I like reading on how they came up with the messages to send out from Magic and the kind of like fighting over the wording of the message.

Also War Warning message is not a phase in use at the time, and it confused many reading the message vs the heading, this was in the testimony at the time.
This post was edited on 12/14/25 at 6:42 am
Posted by GREENHEAD22
Member since Nov 2009
20542 posts
Posted on 12/13/25 at 10:56 pm to
FDR was a huge world order proponent and kicked off big government.

Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 9:47 am to
quote:

Even I do not know what he is trying to say in that post.

No... did you ever get the titles to those books?
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 9:49 am to
quote:

So clarify, at this point…


Its funny everytime I quote you, you claim thats not what you meant.

You at this point are pleading the 5th, unable to defend anything.

I hope you at least learned something.
Posted by Justiceservedcold
Member since Nov 2025
6 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:12 am to
Given everything that was known, there is no reason that every American installation abroad should not have been on high alert for attack.

What happened at Pearl was an incredible failure that falls directly on the shoulders of the Commander in Chief.
Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
3750 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:12 am to
quote:

I truly have no clue what you are trying to accomplish other than being argumentative.

You have created this thread to present an argument. I don't have to provide a counter-argument to prove your argument wrong, I merely have to invalidate your premise(s).

Here's your premise from the OP:
quote:

The attack on Pearl Harbor occurred more than eighty years ago and generations of Americans have been formally taught in government schools that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor constituted an unprovoked act of Japanese aggression that caught the United States and the Roosevelt administration entirely by surprise. Yet any objective analysis of the documents contained in the official Congressional inquiry into the security failures that led to the “surprise” attack on Pearl Harbor reveal that this narrative offers a profoundly distorted interpretation of the historical record.

First of all, I have been taught this same old tired conspiracy theory in "government schools", and have been aware of it for over 50 years. That invalidates that portion of your premise.

Second, I have used the example of an adult male, alive at the time and preparing young men for the coming war to invalidate that portion of your premise that everyone was taken by surprise by the declaration of war.

I have tried to get clarification from you regarding the specific location of the attack, and you have indicated that they did not know of the exact location of the attack. I (and others willing to go into the weeds with you on this) have pointed out that preparations were being made for an imminent Japanese attack in the western Pacific Ocean, invalidating that premise.

I have asked you to provide any new information regarding other provocations the administration may have made besides the embargo, and you have agreed that there was no other provocation. This point I have asked you to explain how it can be considered provocative to have one nation refuse to be held hostage by its trading partners to continue trading under threat of violence, and you have offered no other options, implying that the US must continue selling strategic resources to the Empire of Japan so that they may continue their war of conquest.

In short, you have assumed invalid premises and come "eighty years" after the fact to connect dots to create a picture of your choosing, a common approach to conspiracy theories - and this tired 80 year old conspiracy theory included.
quote:

I have absolutely no clue what you are attempting to articulate here.

Ask tigger1.
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
23495 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:22 am to
quote:

Narax


My initial impression of you was correct. You are simply incapable of encountering an opposing viewpoint without having an emotional meltdown.

In addition you are dumb as a box of rusty door-knockers: your rebuttals in this thread have largely amounted to a series of straw man arguments. Sadly, I genuinely believe you are simply too much an intellectual retard to even know it.

I am indeed running out of insults to describe your gross stupidity. Insulting you indeed has lost it’s luster because it is like shooting fish in a barrel and increasingly offers diminished returns. But by all means, keep bumping this thread to display your rank idiocy: there is some satisfaction to be found there!

This post was edited on 12/14/25 at 10:23 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135576 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:26 am to
quote:

At this point I'm unsure if your insanity is that Kimmel and Short should have been getting messages on how we broke the Japanese codes...

DC knew by late November that Japanese carriers had gone under radio silence. That should have been ominous, but it was not really regarded as such.

DC knew they had lost track of Japan's main carrier/naval forces. DC knew only that they were somewhere at sea, but locations were unknown. This was discussed internally in Washington intelligence circles and is part of the official record.

None of the above was passed on to any commander in the Pacific Theater, much less Kimmel in Pearl Harbor. Instead, Pearl Harbor was alerted only to DC intel concerns about sabotage.

Whatever one has to say about Kimmel and Short at Pearl Harbor, they had far less information than MacArthur did the next morning, with an inexplicably similar result.
Posted by GetmorewithLes
UK Basketball Fan
Member since Jan 2011
22218 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:35 am to
quote:

In short, the Roosevelt Administration deceptively told the public that FDR had endeavored to sustain peace with Japan when in truth the Roosevelt administration was debating how to provoke Japan. The Roosevelt Administration further identified scapegoats who could be held responsible for their own failure to alert the military command of the high probability of an impending Japanese attack.


You are an absolute moron...

POTUS deliberately sacrifices almost the entire Pacific Fleet to draw us into war? If Midway had not turned our way by stroke of luck then we would have been defending the West Coast and Alaska with essentially no naval fleet to do it.
Posted by tigeraddict
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2007
14397 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:42 am to
quote:

The evidence presented in the official inquiry into Pearl Harbor reveals without question that President Roosevelt and Secretary of War Henry Stimson already knew by December 1, 1941 that Japan considered war with the United States imminent, based on intercepted messages and intelligence about Japanese military movements. Despite this, Roosevelt Administration told the American people that negotiations were ongoing and allowed Congress to adjourn without being warned of the approaching danger.


We were still inactive negotiations with Japan. we didnt expect an attack while still talking

just because some intelligence pointed to an attack,most still didnt believe it was actually going to happen. in 1944, intelligence pointed to a german attack in the Ardens, but it was dismissed by higher ups.

Russia waslining up troops on the Ukrainian border in 2022. yet most didnt expect the russians to actually attack.

To top it off back in late 1941, the US greatly underestimated the Japanese, and therefore we didnt "fear" their military. It wasnt until '43 that allied equipment out shined the Japanese
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135576 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 10:52 am to
quote:

I have asked you to provide any new information regarding other provocations the administration may have made besides the embargo
The U.S. froze all Japanese assets in the United States in July 1941. This effectively cut off Japanese access to dollars, and prevented Japan from paying for imports. Britain and the Netherlands followed suit.

The U.S. worked closely with Britain and the Netherlands to embargo not just oil, but scrap metal, aviation fuel, machine tools, etc. Japan interpreted this coordination as encirclement further necessitating and justifying its Pacific expansionism. Japan was left with no alternative other than Western dependence which it viewed as wholly unacceptable. We knew that. Thus if we maintained such policy, we also knew war was inevitable. We maintained and tightened that policy.

Additionally, we transferred forces to the Philippines, and moved our fleet from San Diego to PH.
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 11:05 am to
quote:

My initial impression of you was correct. You are simply incapable of encountering an opposing viewpoint without having an emotional meltdown.

Says the man who has thrown a non stop flipping FO since his statements were clearly disproved...

Very clearly many people have provided evidence that counters your "Alternate facts".

Luckily at this point you know you have no more argument. You are left to ad hominem.

You should think this over.

Why do you love the lie so much.

Continue with your ad hominem.
This post was edited on 12/14/25 at 11:06 am
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 11:28 am to
quote:

DC knew by late November that Japanese carriers had gone under radio silence. That should have been ominous, but it was not really regarded as such.

https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/military-history/2024/12/07/the-scale-of-japanese-radio-deception-in-the-days-before-pearl-harbor/

quote:

By late 1941, however, American and British radio intelligence had mixed capabilities. The countries’ code-breakers had been able to recover only about 10 percent of the code groups of the latest version of the main Japanese naval operational code, and intercepted messages often could not be understood in full. That meant the majority of American efforts were focused on direction finding (D/F) and traffic analysis — i.e., the scrutiny of Japanese naval communications, less the messages.
American ability in this area was good but subject to limitations. While one monitoring station in Cavite, Philippines, known as “Cast,” could take single-line bearings on Japanese ships and stations, the rest of the direction-finding effort was not, according to Navy cryptologist Lt. Cmdr. Joseph John Rochefort, “as efficient or productive of results as it might have been.”

The stations lacked men and equipment, and the long distances involved (more than 2,000 miles) rendered most results difficult to act upon.

U.S. traffic analysis was totally dependent on the level of Tokyo’s communications. Even then, Rochefort’s fleet communications unit in Hawaii, called “Hypo,” sometimes differed with Cavite’s analysis.



Now to note, those reports went to Kimmel and his staff
quote:


Both radio intelligence units reported their findings on a nearly daily basis — Cast’s reports were known as TESTM, while Hypo produced what was called H Chronology. The often-conflicting reports were routinely sent to Kimmel in Pearl Harbor as well as to the Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington, D.C.
To further muddy the waters, Kimmel’s fleet intelligence officer, Commander Edwin Layton, would compose his own daily Communications Intelligence (COMINT) summary, which was largely a synthesis of the Cast and Hypo reports.


Noting that all information was also available to Kimmel daily.

quote:

A complete lack of human intelligence sources meant that the Americans had no way to supplement, replace or verify the conflicting reports. The almost total reliance on intercepted radio traffic meant that all the Japanese had to do to give the Americans the slip was add new levels of security to their naval communications system.

The first step was to initiate the new fleet signal system HY009 (kana-kanak-number), which was put into effect on Nov. 1, 1941. More important, five days later the imperial navy changed the way it addressed radio traffic.


The Japanese were good

quote:

The Japanese Strike Force also received supplementary instructions for its communications. Representatives from the naval general staff, 1st AF, Combined Fleet, 11th Air Fleet and other high-ranking officials were probably briefed at a conference on fleet communications in Tokyo on Oct. 27, 1941. Although records of the conference are mostly missing, we can reconstruct the major elements of the deception plan that was discussed.

The first part of the plan was to forbid communication from the Strike Force’s ships. Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, commander of the Hawaiian Operation (as the Pearl Harbor attack was named), controlled his communications within the stipulations of Yamamoto’s “Secret Order Number One,” which took effect for the Strike Force on November 5
.

Really good
quote:

The Japanese knew, however, that if the ships assigned to the Strike Force suddenly went silent it could alert the Americans. Some sort of radio traffic had to be maintained. Their solution to this problem was simple but effective.

To ensure the authenticity of the old signs, the radio operators from the capital ships of the Strike Force were sent to shore at the Kure, Sasebo and Yokosuka naval bases to deliver this traffic.

These operators, whose familiar “fists” were easily identified by the Americans, were critical to the deception. The Americans would connect the known fists of the operators with direction finding on the call signs of ships such as Akagi and believe that the carriers and other ships were still in Japanese waters.

In addition, as the carriers departed the Inland Sea, aircraft from the 12th Combined Air Group arrived at the newly vacated bases. Their role in the deception was to keep up air activity and associated radio traffic with the carriers and bases as though they were just continuing the earlier training.

The final part of the plan was a radio-monitoring effort to ensure that the Americans remained unaware of the approaching threat. Tokyo tasked its radio-monitoring units with listening to American communications being sent from Pearl Harbor to confirm that their ploy was working.


Did it work?
quote:

On the 24th, Cavite took another D/F bearing of 28 degrees on Akagi and now asserted that it was in Kure — this despite the fact that the station had placed the same carrier in Sasebo two days earlier.

Nevertheless, it was still in “Empire waters,” which seemed to be good enough for the Americans. The intelligence summary went so far as to establish that it had minimal information on the carriers’ whereabouts. For some reason, the summary went on to indicate that one or more carrier divisions were in the Mandates.

The next day, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence released its weekly intelligence summary that placed all Japanese carriers in either Sasebo or Kure.


Yup
quote:

On Dec. 1, the imperial navy changed its service (or fleet) call-sign system, leading both Rochefort and Layton to conclude that Tokyo was preparing for “active operations on a large scale.” However, no one could find any evidence of a Japanese move against Hawaii, only signs of naval movement to the south.

Layton, in his report for the day placed four carriers near Formosa and one in the Mandates. When pressed by Kimmel about the others, he said he believed they were in the Kure area refitting from previous deployments.

For the next six days, the U.S. Pacific Fleet command and the respective radio intelligence centers continued to maintain that the principal Japanese flattops were in home waters near Sasebo, Kure or in the Kyushu area and that a few light or auxiliary carriers had deployed to Formosa or the Mandates.
They continued to believe this right up to the last moment. In fact, just as the first wave of Japanese aircraft appeared over Oahu, Cavite reported that Akagi was in the Nansei Islands, south of Kyushu.



Sometimes the other side is just good.
This post was edited on 12/14/25 at 11:40 am
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
23495 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 12:33 pm to
quote:

First of all, I have been taught this same old tired conspiracy theory in "government schools", and have been aware of it for over 50 years. That invalidates that portion of your premise.


You fail to mention that this “80 year old” argument arose because of documented historical evidence presented in the official Congressional inquiry into Pearl Harbor. Again, this evidence demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Roosevelt Administration increasingly were aware of Japan’s intentions to wage war and did not communicate the full extent of that reality with their commanders.

Yet putting aside the validity of that argument, so freaking what if it is an old argument? The longevity of any argument has no bearing on it’s validity.

By dismissing an argument because it is a “tired conspiracy theory” due solely to its age, you sidestep the actual analysis of the evidence presented about Pearl Harbor, effectively attacking the narrative itself instead of addressing the merits of the argument. Your rebuttal thus serves as a variation of the ad hominem fallacy, as it attacks the longevity of the argument rather than the merits of the argument itself.

quote:

I have asked you to provide any new information regarding other provocations the administration may have made besides the embargo, and you have agreed that there was no other provocation. This point I have asked you to explain how it can be considered provocative to have one nation refuse to be held hostage by its trading partners to continue trading under threat of violence, and you have offered no other options, implying that the US must continue selling strategic resources to the Empire of Japan so that they may continue their war of conquest.



Whether you acknowledge it or not, my interpretation of the motives of the Roosevelt Administration is supported by the official Congressional inquiry into the events leading up to Pearl Harbor. This Congressional investigation revealed that key officials in the Roosevelt Administration were fully aware of the imminent threat posed by Japan yet chose to maintain a narrative that minimized public concern.

This inquiry also revealed that the Roosevelt Administration did not alert military commanders to the full extent of the evidence contained in intercepted Japanese communications that revealed Japan was increasingly preparing for war. Further, the Roosevelt Administration’s policies — including the economic embargo — appeared to further deteriorate relations with Japan.

So it is a legitimate question whether the economic embargo genuinely prevented an escalation with Japan. Such context is crucial when evaluating whether refusing trade with Japan can rightfully be viewed as provocative.

It also is a historical fact — not a “fringe” conspiracy theory — that key officials in the Roosevelt were actively seeking a way to provoke Japan. So any ethical discussion surrounding the embargo must thus consider the Roosevelt Administration’s overall strategy towards Japan and the ramifications of those policies.

With this in mind — and based on a objective analysis of the evidence — it certainly is a plausible theory that one of the purposes of the economic embargo was to provoke Japan, NOT to prevent war. In summary, the very premise of your argument here is undermined by the documented historical evidence that the Roosevelt Administration was actively seeking to provoke Japan into committing hostilities against Anglo-American forces.

This post was edited on 12/14/25 at 5:07 pm
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
23495 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 12:43 pm to
quote:

Says the man who has thrown a non stop flipping FO since his statements were clearly disproved...




Says the little girl who was so triggered that she can’t logically counter an opposing viewpoint that she conjured up a bizarre violent fantasy involving centenarians fighting her fights?





Posted by stitchop
jonesboro
Member since Oct 2020
377 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 12:57 pm to
I will add another fact that is very intriguing.

Thomas E. Dewey knew about the failures of FDR in the PH attack.

"A notable wartime interaction occurred when Dewey received secret briefings from the administration (a historic first for an opposition candidate) and chose not to publicize allegations about pre-Pearl Harbor intelligence failures to avoid harming national security — this showed patriotic restraint but not alliance or friendship."

In September 1944, Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall (acting independently, without direct involvement from FDR in the initial outreach) sent a secret personal letter to Dewey via an intermediary (Colonel Carter W. Clarke). Marshall urged Dewey not to exploit rumors or leaks suggesting the Roosevelt administration had advance knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack, as it would reveal that the U.S. had broken Japanese diplomatic codes (the PURPLE cipher), which were still in use and critical to the ongoing Pacific war effort. Dewey, after initial skepticism, agreed to remain silent, demonstrating bipartisan restraint during wartime.
Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
5985 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 1:01 pm to
I stand behind my statement.

If You spouted your conspiracy to the Pearl Vets, they would have punched you in the face.

It was disrespectful to them, and only a disreputable person would try to force them to cover for your sad little conspiracy.

The fact that you aren't ashamed of yourself is proof of your lack of honor.

You are so fixated on it, because it calls out that lack of honor you have continued to show.
Posted by stitchop
jonesboro
Member since Oct 2020
377 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 1:09 pm to
quote:

POTUS deliberately sacrifices...?


The truth is that FDR didn't deliberately allow the attack.
Rather it was a monumental failure.

FDR wanted the war, not specifically the attack.

The administration knew attack was imminent, not specifically the Pearl Harbor attack.
The fact that Pearl Harbor could have been predicted as the most likely site for initial attacks doesn't take a brilliant mind.
Anyone with minimum knowledge of the US NAVY would have predicted the likelihood.

FDR didn't sacrifice Pearl Harbor intentionally, but rather by monumental negligence of intelligence. By intelligence i didn't mean intellectual, but the information the administration had at the time.
first pageprev pagePage 9 of 10Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on X, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookXInstagram