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re: DNA analysis shows that Jews and Arabs Descended from Canaanites
Posted on 5/26/25 at 5:34 pm to Bestbank Tiger
Posted on 5/26/25 at 5:34 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
They were pretty open about it.
Good things happened when they were loyal to YHWH and bad things happened when they followed Baal, or relied on other kingdoms.
I'm honestly shocked that anyone thinks this is weird.
The Bible mentions that the founders of the 12 tribes had local Canaanites (or Egyptian) wives.
It mentions that some of those who crossed into the promised land took local wives.
It mentions there was a fck ton of intermarriage with the locals, and worship of local gods.
I mean this is all dead on.
So many feeling so wise that since the Biblical record matches DNA, the Bible can't be true.
1
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:04 pm to Grinders Switch
quote:
Ham was cursed after looking upon his father’s nakedness. Shem and Japheth covered Noah after Ham spoke of what he did. We dont know the full context of what actually happened but my human perspective is it must’ve been something really perverted to cause all of Hams descendants to carry the burden of a curse we dont fully comprehend
If you read Leviticus chapter 18 and keep in mind that both Genesis and Leviticus are traditionally believed to be written by Moses, an interesting theory starts to come into focus.
If you look at the language used in Leviticus, especially in chapter 18, you’ll notice that “uncovering someone’s nakedness” is often a euphemism for having sex with that person. Specifically, Leviticus 18 verse 8 says that uncovering the nakedness of your father’s wife is the same as uncovering your father’s nakedness. In other words, sleeping with your mother or stepmother was considered a direct violation of your father’s dignity.
Now apply that idea back to Genesis. If Ham “saw his father’s nakedness,” and if that phrase actually means he slept with his father’s wife, then it’s possible that Ham had sex with his own mother. If that’s the case, and Canaan was the child born from that act, it would explain why Noah cursed Canaan. The curse would make a lot more sense if Canaan was the result of such a serious violation.
This theory isn’t stated outright in the text, but when you read Genesis and Leviticus together, and pay attention to how certain phrases are used, it opens the door to this as a possibility.
This post was edited on 5/26/25 at 6:05 pm
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:12 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Good things happened when they were loyal to YHWH and bad things happened when they followed Baal, or relied on other kingdoms.
It's honestly quite odd for people to claim this isn't completely in line with the Bible. It is very clear that the Jews often worshiped multiple gods in defiance of the one true God.
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:20 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:
This is one of the RARE things you say that's actually correct
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:29 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
It's honestly quite odd for people to claim this isn't completely in line with the Bible. It is very clear that the Jews often worshiped multiple gods in defiance of the one true God.
But the Bible doesn't really agree with the timeline that this DNA corroborates with the archeological evidence.
Was Abraham a Canaanite?
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:42 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Was Abraham a Canaanite?
Lets look at the tree:
Gen 1
Abraham - Mesopotamian
Sarah - Mesopotamian
Hagar - Canaanite
Gen 2
Ishmael - 50% Mesopotamian 50% Canaanite
Ishmael's wife - Canaanite
Isaac - Mesopotamian
Rebecca - Mesopotamian
Gen 3
Ishmael's many Children 75% Canaanite 25% Mesopotamian
Essau - Mesopotamian
Essau's Wife - Canaanite
Jacob- Mesopotamian
Leah- Mesopotamian
Rachel- Mesopotamian
Gen 4
Ishmael's many many grandchildren 87.5% Canaanite 12.5% Mesopotamian
Essau's many Kids - 50% Mesopotamian 50% Canaanite
Jacobs 12 kids - Mesopotamian
Wives of Jacob's Kids - Canaanite/Egyptian
Essau's many Kids - 50% Mesopotamian 50% Canaanite
Gen 5
Ishmael's army of great grandchildren >95% Canaanite
Essau's many many grandkids - 75% Canaanite 25% Mesopotamian
Jacob's grandkids - 50% Mesopotamian 50% Canaanite/Egyptian
400 years in slavery in Egypt, those next generation are going to look very Canaanite.
A DNA test would not find a difference.
Posted on 5/26/25 at 6:46 pm to Narax
quote:
400 years in slavery in Egypt,
Is there anything in the historical record to support this actually happened?
Why'd you go through 5 generations if your whole argument relies on the "400 years in slavery"?
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:04 pm to Narax
quote:
Hagar - Canaanite
Hagar wasn't a Canaanite. She was Egyptian.
According to the book of Genesis, she was an Egyptian slave
quote:Genesis 16:1
"Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. She had a female Egyptian servant whose name was Hagar".
`
This post was edited on 5/26/25 at 7:11 pm
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:08 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Is there anything in the historical record to support this actually happened?
Good question.
Sourcing mostly from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
When Jacob supposedly went down to Egypt was at the end of the Middle Kingdom there are records of visiting peoples (Aamu) such as "Abisha the Hyksos"
During that time, Egypt started sending military campaigns into Palestine.
quote:
Archaeology shows a continuous Asiatic presence at Avaris for over 150 years before the beginning of Hyksos rule, with gradual Canaanite settlement beginning there c. 1800 BC during the Twelfth Dynasty. Strontium isotope analysis of the inhabitants of Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period Avaris also dismissed the invasion model in favor of a migration one. Contrary to the model of a foreign invasion, the study did not find more males moving into the region, but instead found a sex bias towards females, with a high proportion of 77% of females being non-locals.
quote:
Thomas Schneider places the conquest in year 18 of Ahmose's reign.However, excavations of Tell El-Dab'a (Avaris) show no widespread destruction of the city, which instead seems to have been abandoned by the Hyksos.[96] Manetho, as recorded in Josephus, states that the Hyksos were allowed to leave after concluding a treaty:
Thoumosis ... invested the walls [of Avaris] with an army of 480,000 men, and endeavoured to reduce [the Hyksos] to submission by siege. Despairing of achieving his object, he concluded a treaty, under which [the Hyksos] were all to evacuate Egypt and go whither they would unmolested. Upon these terms no fewer than two hundred and forty thousand, entire households with their possessions, left Egypt and traversed the desert to Syria. (Contra Apion I.88-89)
quote:
Although Manetho indicates that the Hyksos population was expelled to the Levant, there is no archaeological evidence for this, and Manfred Bietak argues based on archaeological finds throughout Egypt that it is likely that numerous Asiatics were resettled in other locations in Egypt as artisans and craftsmen. Many may have remained at Avaris, as pottery and scarabs with typical "Hyksos" forms continued to be produced uninterrupted throughout the Eastern Delta. Canaanite cults also continued to be worshiped at Avaris.
Then came the New Kingdom.
Atenism started in this time period (c. 1350 B.C.) which is the first documented monotheism.
So in short considering how long ago it was there is a lot of information that an Israelite settlement and Exodus could fit into.
quote:
Why'd you go through 5 generations if your whole argument relies on the "400 years in slavery"?
It's an example about how DNA melts into the surrounding population, or how all Turkish people are just Islamic Greeks.
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:10 pm to L.A.
quote:
Hagar wasn't a Canaanite. She was an Egyptian slave
Yes, either way Ishmael's descendants quickly were absorbed in Canaanite DNA
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
400 years in slavery
According to the Bible, the Israelites were not enslaved in Egypt for the full 400 years. Exodus 12:40 says they lived in Egypt for 430 years, but that period actually began when Abraham entered Canaan as Canaan was under control of the Egyptian empire. From Abraham to Jacob’s move to Egypt was about 215 years. The Israelites lived peacefully in Egypt at first, and only after Joseph’s death did oppression begin. Since Moses was the grandson of Kohath, who came to Egypt with Jacob, the actual time spent in slavery was likely closer to 100 years, not 400.
This post was edited on 5/26/25 at 7:24 pm
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:28 pm to cssamerican
quote:
According to the Bible,
While I agree that's accurate, I am using shorthand for events as I don't think the Biblical exact record can be supported with the records available.
The main argument though is that there was a Semitic presence at Tell el-Dab'a for much of this time period.
Posted on 5/26/25 at 7:58 pm to Narax
biblical genealogist Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson has an interesting playlist on YouTube tracing different races back to Noah. Christian or not, its pretty interesting.
Posted on 5/26/25 at 9:37 pm to blueboy
quote:There are a few possibilities, starting with the Merneptah stele
How about artifacts, any other physical evidence of their culture or any mention in the millennia of writings we have from Egypt?
quote:Proto Judaism existed in the form of the Hebrews
Or maybe it would help if judaism existed at the time they're supposed to have been in Egypt
Posted on 5/26/25 at 9:39 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:You're not referring to the Bible are you? Because the Bible speaks of people who have since been confirmed by archaeology. It also accords with events and places.
religious book posing as a historical work
Do you know of any counterexamples where the Bible is untrue historically?
Posted on 5/26/25 at 9:42 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:So it doesn't register with you that Jesus has experienced first hand the same kinds of pain that you have, i.e. immanent? Whereas Allah is transcendent only and no Muslim can have a relationship with Allah
I just still find it hard to think of a being that knows its eternal having the same sort of visceral response to being tortured that maybe I would have
Posted on 5/26/25 at 9:43 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:Reading and understanding are 2 different things and in your case, it seems if you knew what the gospel actually was, you wouldn't have even made that point
I can't speak to you specifically but I can tell you that it's the rare person I've met religious or not that has read the Bible more shall I say religiously than I have
Posted on 5/26/25 at 9:44 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:
So it doesn't register with you that Jesus has experienced first hand the same kinds of pain that you have, i.e. immanent? Whereas Allah is transcendent only and no Muslim can have a relationship with Allah
I am pretty damn certain I haven't said anything about Islam in this thread
Posted on 5/26/25 at 10:15 pm to Augustus516
quote:No, you made up an artificial criteria and then expected the Bible to conform to it
I am basing my beliefs in God’s word the Bible
quote:Testing the spirits is not the same thing as you saying you think the word trinity should be much more prominent and explicit or you're not going to believe it. Trinity is in the Bible. You just don't like how it's stated or how often
1 John 4:1,2
quote:Tell me what I said that's wrong
A literal reference typically has context to it
quote:You are almost as bad as SFP. Did Huff say something false?
Rather than place your faith in a podcast
quote:In his (contemporaneously) current form, yes. The hypostatic union does not negate the trinity
the Father is greater than I am
quote:Which doesn't negate the trinity. He is tripartite
The entire chapter is Jesus praying to God, his Father
quote:First, proving that God is tripartite which totally undermines your point. Also, do you know why Jesus said that?
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
quote:Right, tripartite. NOT subordinate
He speaks of the one who Sent me, and going back to him
quote:While he is on earth
he does not do his will, but the will of the Father
I noticed that you haven't mentioned several other passages where Jesus makes claims to divinity
quote:Explain where this happened
twisting its words to support false teaching
quote:Messianic title used by Jesus to express his heavenly origin, earthly mission, and glorious future coming. It does not refer merely to his human nature or humanity. Rather, it reflects on the heavenly origin and divine dignity of Jesus, on the mystery of his manifestation in human form, and on his earthly mission which involved suffering and death but which issued in heavenly glory to be followed by eschatological vindication.
tell me what the expression, son of man means
Jesus’ use of the term “Son of Man” and numerous themes from Ezekiel suggest his desire to identify himself as the eschatological prophet who, like Ezekiel (ch 4; 7; 10; 22; 40–48), had the last word about the destruction of Jerusalem and the restoration of the kingdom of God to Israel (Mt 23; 24; Acts 1:6–8).
The specific source of the term is Daniel 7:13, 14, with its vision of one “like a son of man” who “comes with the clouds” into the presence of “the Ancient of Days” who gives him the universal and eternal kingdom of God. Jesus repeatedly quoted parts of this text in teaching about his second coming (Mt 16:27; 19:28; 24:30; 25:31; 26:64). Clearly, Jesus understood this passage as a prophetic portrayal of his own person: his incarnation, ascension, and inheritance of the kingdom of God.
The appellation Son of Man must refer to God, i.e. the second person of the trinity
quote:This is the problem. Christians are called to fellowship, love the Lord with all your mind. How can you do that when you're tying one hand behind your back? You are not a biblical, textual, historical scholar. You don't understand the cultural contexts, the exegesis, textual analysis, ancient Hebrew/Greek language, etc. Those all contribute to fuller, more mature understanding of the scripture and prevent stupid, hasty conclusions like "the Bible doesn't support the trinity."
Anything less (podcasts, linked articles, opinion pieces) is not needed when you can use the scriptures to back you up
The first followers of Jesus had no problem with the doctrine of the trinity. The patristics had no problem with it either. That's significant.
You are commiting the genetic fallacy in denying yourself these extra resources - people who came before you who know more than you do. We certainly can and should avail ourselves of their wisdom and stand on their shoulders.
There are plenty of free commentaries online. They can supplement your Bible study. Matthew Henry is a good place to start
Posted on 5/26/25 at 10:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
God, in the broadest sense, became obsolete as an explanation/justification for why the world was it was
Laughable. Philosophers are STILL wrestling with how everything came to be. Scientists STILL can't answer basic questions about our existence
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