re: Cleveland Clinic Performs Its First In Utero Fetal Surgery Stolen from O.T.

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never happens. An OB performing an abortion purely to save the life of the mother at 30 weeks would lose their medical license and potentially serve time in jail, even if the state allowed abortions that late.

Abortions are actually MORE dangerous than delivery in that instance

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Indeed.
As has been told to AggieHank86 repeatedly. At some point ignorance transitions from uninformed to wilful. Hank passed that point.

At this juncture, his incessant return to the fictional narrative of a 30wk termination and abortion to "save the mother's life" is deliberately ignorant. The medical reality that termination and abortion at 30wks would be far less safe for an endangered mother than induced (or surgical) delivery has been explained to him again and again. It isn't that he doesn't understand it. It is that accepting it shreds his argument.

Better a fictional argument than a factual reset, I guess.

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No thinking person believes a 8 week and a 24 week old fetus are identical, either physiologically or philosophically. The arguments against abortion in any instance don’t hinge on those two organisms being interchangeable. The people who believe it is fundamentally always immoral do so apart from gestational biology or cognitive capacity. Thus, any argument that tries to draw a distinction between developmental age or sentience/sapience as the measure of when abortion is ok will ring hollow.

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I certainly do not see them as interchangeable, but this forum is full to the gills with those who DO. One of them is jumping up and down on this very page, screaming “Look at me!”

You are correct. To these people, any argument based upon developmental level is automatically a loser, but that is unsurprising. To them, ANY argument in support of abortion rights is automatically a loser, because ... reasons. They will insist that they are applying some objective test, but in truth they are simply saying nothing more than the fact that they always oppose abortion under any circumstance and will not consider ANY argument in support of those rights. (Well, except for those who support exceptions for rape/incest, which has always struck me as odd, given that those are simply elective abortions by a different name).

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The medical reality that termination and abortion at 30wks would be far less safe for an endangered mother than induced (or surgical) delivery has been explained to him again and again. It isn't that he doesn't understand it. It is that accepting it shreds his argument.

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You want a blanket prohibition on (rare) medical abortions in the second half of gestation ( even more rare), and I would leave the matter to the treating physician. That differing viewpoint hardly “shatters” the basic balancing analysis outlined above.

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but the simple fact is that some doctors disagree with your assessment.

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False.
No credible physician would disagree with his assessment.
What Roger posted is not a medically disputable premise. Sorry.

I know you don't want to hear that, but facts are facts.

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I would leave the matter to the treating physician. That differing viewpoint hardly “shatters” the basic balancing analysis outlined above.

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It does when the "matter" is not medically indicated.

E.g., Would you leave Female Genital Mutilation to the treating physician?

murdering babies is pretty radical. Just because it’s widely supported by popular culture doesn’t mean it’s not radical.

It comes down to a fundamental difference in definition of life. You don’t think babies are human and I do. I’m not going to change your mind but you’re still wrong.

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no, that is EXACTLY what it means. By definition, “radical“ is something which is far, far to the left of the mainstream.

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Got it so slavery in the American South wasn’t radical and neither were death camps in Nazi Germany because they were widely used and popular in those places.

I don’t agree with your reasoning for supporting abortion, because as a parent a mother is thrown in jail if she abandoned her child at any point after being born. For 18+ years the mother has to work to take care of the child, sacrificing time, money and physical/mental self to take care of the baby. That’s a lot more taxing than holding it in your belly for 9 months yet killing it in the womb is legal and in 2019 celebrated. If a mom took the baby back to the hospital at 6 months old to be aborted post-birth because breastfeeding and spending $1000 a month on daycare violated her “rights vested in her as an individual organism” would you say this is murder or her right to be an individual?

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Got it so slavery in the American South wasn’t radical and neither were death camps in Nazi Germany because they were widely used and popular in those places.

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no, slavery in the South was not remotely radical. To the the contrary, The abolitionist were considered to be radicals at the time. By contrast, in the deep South support of the institution of slavery was quite main stream. In some parts of the north and in other countries where slavery has been abolished, the support of slavery might’ve been considered “reactionary.” You do understand the difference between “radical” and reactionary,” do you not?

Nazi death camps are completely different matter. For the most part, the regime actually hit their existence from the populace, having indicated that the persons in question were being “re-settled to the East.“ to the extent that their existence was known, it is not entirely clear whether the use of those camps would be considered radical or reactionary, as they were not really a Left or Right concept. There were more of an “Authoritarian“ concept, given that they and similar concentration camps were utilize not only by the Nazis but also by the Soviets, etc.

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as a parent a mother is thrown in jail if she abandoned her child at any point after being born. For 18+ years the mother has to work to take care of the child, sacrificing time, money and physical/mental self to take care of the baby.

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The difference is that the mother you mention has the option of surrendering the child for adoption, etcetera, immediately. By contrast, a woman who is (for example) pregnant by eight weeks will have her rights to self-determination in French (whether you consider a significant or not) for a period of seven months, if she is forced to carry the pregnancy to term prior to surrendering for adoption.

Your example is PCS. Killing the six-month-old infant is not her only option to and the interference with her self determination rights. She cannot take (again, and short notice) surrender the child for adoption.

For the pregnant woman, however, the only means by which her rights can be protected is through abortion.

For the umpteenth time, however, I have never started that those right should be absolute. Again, there should be a balancing analysis.

It always comes back to the hyperbole.

Rabid abortion rights supporters insist that your ilk have no goal but the subjugation of women, which any objective person can recognize as simplistic nonsense.

And your ilk reeeee that all supporters of abortion rights are gleefully rubbing their hands together in anticipations of the genocide of every child on the planet. Again, simplistic, emotional nonsense.

Just in case it was not clear, let me explicitly state my opinion that absolutists at each end of the spectrum are simpletons.

Women have rights, which your side routinely ignore. A developing fetus also has rights (of a sort) which are developing as the fetus develops and which extremists on the other side ignore.

My goal is to take both sets of rights into account, and to balance those rights in such a way as to not be overly restrictive upon the woman while at the same time not killing anything that would have any notion that it is even being killed ... or that it was ever alive to start with.

The fact that so many of you Absolutists (on both sides) cannot grasp this concept simply demonstrates what an assembly of emotional little Nellies you are.....