re: Cleveland Clinic Performs Its First In Utero Fetal Surgery Stolen from O.T.

You’re entire argument is yes it’s a human and that we have to allow someone to kill another human. The answer is no we don’t have to allow someone to kill someone else. You think it makes you an intellectual but it doesn’t. We don’t have to allow murder.


The woman has rights. She has the right to abstinence. She has the right to use a condom. She has the right to birth control medication. Heck she even has the right to the morning after pill. There are so many points that she had a choice to make and she chose that risk. If I chose to bet my life savings on an LSU national championship I don’t get to terminate the bet because it’s inconvenient after the fact

She shouldn’t have the right to end a humans life because she was irresponsible.

hank. you questioned my intelligence. tell me ONE THING i said that's wrong and why it's wrong. i want to learn from the master. instruct me.

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I examine sapience rather than sentience for one simple reason. We are attempting (as a starting point) to determine why it is unacceptable to kill an adult human (a point on which there is near unanimity), but acceptable to kill the vast majority of the other organisms on the planet.

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Let's talk philosophically (and theologically) for a second. This question's answer depends upon the worldview we espouse.

For the atheist or agnostic, or anyone who adheres to secular humanism based on a naturalstic and materialstic worldview regarding human origins, there is no intrinsic value in humanity, at least if one is consistent. In this sort of worldview, humans are nothing more than more advanced animals. We're more advanced protoplasm and star dust. We are nothing more than matter and energy coalesced into chemical reactions acting in response to natural forces. In essence, we have no inherent value. At least, no more than a rock or a seashell or a snowflake.

In this sort of worldview, there is no real value to humanity but only subjective value that each individual determines for themselves, and thus the question of whether or not an adult human has more value than an unborn human is ultimately meaningless. There is no value in either one, so trying to decide which has more value is an exercise in futility as the question doesn't make any sense. The best you can hope for is value on an individual basis being forced upon society through democracy or some sort of might-makes-right system. No matter how you slice it, such value distinctions are arbitrary in this secular worldview.

I'm a Christian. I believe the Bible must be the fundamental basis for intelligibility because without it and without the God of the Bible, we can't know anything for certain. We would have no basis for human dignity (which is the value proposition aspect of we're discussing) nor any basis for moral absolutes (which is the moral component associated with infringing on rights that we're discussing). As a Christian, I have a basis for human dignity (value) and objective morality which is a standard we can compare our actions to (such as abortion) and make a determination as to whether or not those actions are "right" or "wrong".

Sapience is completely arbitrary as it is just one human standard among many that individuals could look to in order to determine relative worth or value and whether or not abortion can or should be performed. If you adhere to a secular, atheistic worldview that denies the existence of God and the dignity and value we have intrinsically as human beings, we are left with complete arbitrariness. You can use pragmatism as your moral compass at that point. You can use feelings as your standard. You can have any standard you want and it won't matter from an objective stand point. We don't really even have a basis for trying to convince others that our way is right because 1. there is no objectively right way, and 2. it doesn't ultimately matter anyway since we are just advanced amoebas.

I believe that life starts at conception because that is the scientific, medical, and theological truth. Life has value because we are made in the image of God and only God can determine what is morally right or wrong in terms of our actions to one another. He has determined that it is unlawful to take an innocent life and that abortion falls under this category. There is no exception for sentience or sapience. There is no exception for the mental or emotional trauma of the mother. There is no exception for the financial impact of the mother or parents. It is morally wrong to commit abortion out of convenience, which is what all abortion boils down to outside of the actual life of the mother being in critical danger.

Foo,

You raise a number of interesting points which are worthy of discussion. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to do so right now in the depth that your post deserves. As such, I will try to come back to it this evening.

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Foo,

You raise a number of interesting points which are worthy of discussion

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which i've already raised. but don't mention that

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Unfortunately, I do not have the time to do so right now in the depth

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you need time to google what all he said?