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re: Catholics Only: What's Your Take on Pope Francis?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 11:53 pm to AbuTheMonkey
Posted on 6/1/17 at 11:53 pm to AbuTheMonkey
Great post. This thread really delivered for me.
I wish that happened more often.
I wish that happened more often.
0
Posted on 6/2/17 at 12:12 am to braindeadboxer
How does a prayer's repetitiveness have any bearing on whether it is sensical? Should we not tell our spouses we love them every night because it is repetitive? Does that make it somehow lose its meaning? Would coming up with a new variant of "hello" every time we answer the phone be more meaningful than just saying hello every time? Does the dictionary have asterisks next to words warning readers repetition renders their meanings null and void?
I can tell you manning up and speaking to a living, breathing human being about something you're not proud of is a lot more of a deterrent than whispering prayers to God in a cold, dark room where no one you actually physically encounter can hold you accountable.
Forgiveness should be sought from all who you offend (God, your fellow man and the Church (via the priest)). I'm sorry the 300 year old Protestant faith of the microcosmic Southern United States has convinced you to take the easy route and somehow made you believe you're actually superior for it.
I can tell you manning up and speaking to a living, breathing human being about something you're not proud of is a lot more of a deterrent than whispering prayers to God in a cold, dark room where no one you actually physically encounter can hold you accountable.
Forgiveness should be sought from all who you offend (God, your fellow man and the Church (via the priest)). I'm sorry the 300 year old Protestant faith of the microcosmic Southern United States has convinced you to take the easy route and somehow made you believe you're actually superior for it.
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 12:14 am
Posted on 6/2/17 at 12:18 am to KCT
quote:
(1) Your assessment of some of his more politicized statements & views.
I don't care for his personal political beliefs. I find them largely incompatible with liberty.
quote:
(2) How you would compare him to other Popes of the past 50-60 years.
Id take any other pope of the last century over him.
quote:
(3) Do you consider him to be infallible regarding his pronouncements, statements, etc?
When speaking on matters of faith and morals, yes. His leftist political leanings are not covered by infallibility. Popes can be wrong, and ofter are.
quote:
4) How much impact does he or any other Pope have on (1) Your own views and (2) your own life?
Very little. Too far away.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 12:35 am to AbuTheMonkey
Fantastic post. I feel little need to get into which of the two faiths is the superior. We have more in common than we have in difference.
But I can say it would be tremendously difficult for me to be more impressed by any other Christian faith than the one that has formed the bedrock of even much modern philosophy and produced some of the biggest intellectual heavyweights the world has ever known.
I'll put it this way: there's enough depth and breadth and density to the Catholic faith that responding to pot shots based on the numerous Protestant misconceptions out there simply becomes a task that isn't even worth entertaining. To dismiss the millennia of Catholic thought in favor of a comparatively nascent worldview shaped primarily in the most primitive areas of the United States would be something akin to buying a seven layer dip only to eat the olives off the top.
There's a whole heck of a lot more to get into than to waste time bickering about the small stuff. We might as well focus on our similarities and otherwise spend our time appreciating the tremendous amount of theology and philosophy our Catholic forebears have left us with.
But I can say it would be tremendously difficult for me to be more impressed by any other Christian faith than the one that has formed the bedrock of even much modern philosophy and produced some of the biggest intellectual heavyweights the world has ever known.
I'll put it this way: there's enough depth and breadth and density to the Catholic faith that responding to pot shots based on the numerous Protestant misconceptions out there simply becomes a task that isn't even worth entertaining. To dismiss the millennia of Catholic thought in favor of a comparatively nascent worldview shaped primarily in the most primitive areas of the United States would be something akin to buying a seven layer dip only to eat the olives off the top.
There's a whole heck of a lot more to get into than to waste time bickering about the small stuff. We might as well focus on our similarities and otherwise spend our time appreciating the tremendous amount of theology and philosophy our Catholic forebears have left us with.
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 12:38 am
Posted on 6/2/17 at 4:50 am to AbuTheMonkey
They are definitely socially conservative, and have the zeal of those coming from a region where Christianity and Islam are both expanding and competing for converts. It's difficult to define exactly what "economically conservative" means, but I would say that African Catholics are less likely to stress economics one way or the other.
Probably the greatest living conservative cardinal is Robert Sarah from the Republic of (French) Guinea. He had a long autobiographical interview published in French, God or Nothing, which is now available in English.
The African bishops played a huge role in defending the sanctity of marriage against the back-channel attempts of Pope Francis to allow communion for the divorced and remarried (and possibly for those living as gay couples too). People forget just how big of a deal that the Synod of the Family in October 2015 was (along with its predecessor from the prior year). It was a fairly dramatic pitched battle chosen by Pope Francis, where he essentially plotted to change the Catholic Church through back-door machinations, and was ultimately rebuffed by a large majority of cardinals.
Of course the world's biggest star in terms of covering that event was none other than the NYTimes's Harvard-educated politics and religion columnist, Ross Douthat.
" The Pope and the Precipice" by Ross Douthat (10/25/14)
" The Pope's Marriage Endgame" by Ross Douthat (9/12/2015)
" The Plot to Change Catholicism" by Ross Douthat (10/17/2015)
The last one prompted an infamous " Letter to the Editors" of the NYTimes signed by numerous liberal Catholic academics:
Looking back at the lead up to that, there's a good take by Rod Dreher about Ross's infamous tweet against Massimo Faggioli, a theology professor at Villanova.
"Own your heresy." -- Ross Douthat, NYTimes Columnist, to Villanova professor Massimo Faggioli, 10/23/2015
But of course Ross got the last word...
" Letter to the Catholic Academy" by Ross Douthat (10/31/2015)
Ross is an extremely annoying paleocon and opportunistic turncoat when writing about Republican politics, supporting restricted immigration and blue collar wage supports, and having a strange fetish for Mormonism and Mitt Romney (he grew up Pentecostal before converting to Catholicism as an adult)... however, when it comes to matters of religion, he appears to be the intellectual world leader of the faithful opposition.
Probably the greatest living conservative cardinal is Robert Sarah from the Republic of (French) Guinea. He had a long autobiographical interview published in French, God or Nothing, which is now available in English.
The African bishops played a huge role in defending the sanctity of marriage against the back-channel attempts of Pope Francis to allow communion for the divorced and remarried (and possibly for those living as gay couples too). People forget just how big of a deal that the Synod of the Family in October 2015 was (along with its predecessor from the prior year). It was a fairly dramatic pitched battle chosen by Pope Francis, where he essentially plotted to change the Catholic Church through back-door machinations, and was ultimately rebuffed by a large majority of cardinals.
Of course the world's biggest star in terms of covering that event was none other than the NYTimes's Harvard-educated politics and religion columnist, Ross Douthat.
" The Pope and the Precipice" by Ross Douthat (10/25/14)
" The Pope's Marriage Endgame" by Ross Douthat (9/12/2015)
" The Plot to Change Catholicism" by Ross Douthat (10/17/2015)
The last one prompted an infamous " Letter to the Editors" of the NYTimes signed by numerous liberal Catholic academics:
quote:
To the editor of the New York Times
On Sunday, October 18, the Times published Ross Douthat’s piece “The Plot to Change Catholicism.” Aside from the fact that Mr. Douthat has no professional qualifications for writing on the subject, the problem with his article and other recent statements is his view of Catholicism as unapologetically subject to a politically partisan narrative that has very little to do with what Catholicism really is. Moreover, accusing other members of the Catholic church of heresy, sometimes subtly, sometimes openly, is serious business that can have serious consequences for those so accused. This is not what we expect of the New York Times.
October 26, 2015
Looking back at the lead up to that, there's a good take by Rod Dreher about Ross's infamous tweet against Massimo Faggioli, a theology professor at Villanova.
"Own your heresy." -- Ross Douthat, NYTimes Columnist, to Villanova professor Massimo Faggioli, 10/23/2015
But of course Ross got the last word...
" Letter to the Catholic Academy" by Ross Douthat (10/31/2015)
Ross is an extremely annoying paleocon and opportunistic turncoat when writing about Republican politics, supporting restricted immigration and blue collar wage supports, and having a strange fetish for Mormonism and Mitt Romney (he grew up Pentecostal before converting to Catholicism as an adult)... however, when it comes to matters of religion, he appears to be the intellectual world leader of the faithful opposition.
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 4:54 am
Posted on 6/2/17 at 5:19 am to RedStickBR
quote:
comparatively nascent worldview shaped primarily in the most primitive areas of the United States
Your ignorance of protestant thought mirrors that of ignorant protestants vis-a-vis Catholicism.
Congrats.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 5:24 am to Golfer
Posted on 6/2/17 at 5:29 am to KCT
1. The Pope is the Successor of St. Peter, what he says is infallible.
2. I don't rank popes and considering there has only been 3 in my lifetime and John Paul II dying when I was only 14 and I didn't understand what impact he has now or then, not much to go on for me personally.
3. Pope is infallible according to Catholic dogma.
4. As a Catholic from being baptized as a newborn infant to present, any Pope will have an impact on my life. I'm not hugely devout by going to church regularly or anything, but I'm a believer in the Church and so any impact the Pope makes will impact my life too. Remember what Jesus told to St. Peter, the first pope.
2. I don't rank popes and considering there has only been 3 in my lifetime and John Paul II dying when I was only 14 and I didn't understand what impact he has now or then, not much to go on for me personally.
3. Pope is infallible according to Catholic dogma.
4. As a Catholic from being baptized as a newborn infant to present, any Pope will have an impact on my life. I'm not hugely devout by going to church regularly or anything, but I'm a believer in the Church and so any impact the Pope makes will impact my life too. Remember what Jesus told to St. Peter, the first pope.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 6:32 am to JohnnyU
quote:
But it's okay for Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell or other 'evangelists' to spout their right wing agenda?
How about the wealth of all the protestant denominations actually doing charity work for their tax exemption? Maybe instead of building palaces for churches they could feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter and minister to the poor as Jesus taught.
The question was my take on the Pope.
Of course he is free to spout whatever bullshite he wants. He is the head of the Church and a head of state. The others you named can do the same (albeit, they are not heads of state). They are all self-aggrandizing hypocrites with political motivations.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 6:35 am to KCT
Not Catholic but his selection is easily the worst Pope selection since I've been alive. Now I know it might be easy for people to assume I say that because he's liberal but that's not his primary problem
His problem from my perspective is that a pope is supposed to be the religious leader for Catholics and I don't think anybody actually thinks of him as a religious leader. He's become a politician. Now I get that the Vatican has always had its political overtones. But I just don't see the benefit to a church when its leader is seen as primarily political.
His problem from my perspective is that a pope is supposed to be the religious leader for Catholics and I don't think anybody actually thinks of him as a religious leader. He's become a politician. Now I get that the Vatican has always had its political overtones. But I just don't see the benefit to a church when its leader is seen as primarily political.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 8:13 am to ShortyRob
When the Pope started talking about California politics and carbon taxes, that's where he completely lost me.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 8:22 am to Mo Jeaux
I'm not talking about the Lutherans, the Episcopalians/Anglicans, etc. who all indeed have rich traditions. But they aren't the ones with the Catholic misconceptions, so they were irrelevant to the conversation. The ones I'm talking about tend to be the Baptists and the non-denoms and they tend to be militantly vocal about it the further south and further rural you get. Forgive me for generalizing, but the conversation had already begun generalizing before I entered it, so I continued using the broader term Protestant.
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 8:22 am
Posted on 6/2/17 at 8:32 am to RedStickBR
quote:
To dismiss the millennia of Catholic thought in favor of a comparatively nascent worldview shaped primarily in the most primitive areas of the United States would be something akin to buying a seven layer dip only to eat the olives off the top.
My friend, I just want you to know that I intend to plagiarize this sentence early and very, very often! The more I study my Catholic faith, the more I realize that I've only scratched the surface. Recently, I joined a Latin choir... the absolute TREASURE TROVE of music written hundreds of years ago and still sung today connects me with our past generations like nothing else. In essence, we are singing what they were singing 700 years ago!
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 8:37 am
Posted on 6/2/17 at 8:59 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:
3. Catholic faith recognizes the pope to be infallible. This is a trick question
I don't know what you mean by the trick question, but the pope is not infallible unless he speaks ex cathedra, which hardly ever happens.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:21 am to RedStickBR
quote:
The ones I'm talking about tend to be the Baptists and the non-denoms and they tend to be militantly vocal about it the further south and further rural you get. Forgive me for generalizing, but the conversation had already begun generalizing before I entered it, so I continued using the broader term Protestant.
You could've just typed "dumb Southerners" and reduced your risk of getting carpal tunnel syndrome.
I mean, that's what you've basically stated twice now. Don't misunderstand; I'm not offended by your comments. Freedom of speech is a great thing, and personally, I like to know what people really think.
I'm not even certain that you were directing your comments at me (as one example), anyway. Like I've already stated, I started this thread for the dual purpose of 1) getting a feel for what Catholics think about Pope Francis, and 2) learning a little more than I already knew about Catholicism. As a non-Catholic, I really don't know why anyone would necessarily expect someone like me to know as much about this "denomination" as somebody like you or Doc Fenton. But, I will say this. While you felt an obvious need, for whatever reason, to denigrate certain non-Catholics, especially from certain areas of the country, the majority of the Catholics here have imputed various pieces of information without feeling the need to "go there" w/regards to denigrating those of us who aren't part of the Catholic Church.
I'm just saying, I think I prefer my information sans a strong dose of unnecessary condescension.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:25 am to KCT
And now, a perfectly good thread is anchored by some anonymous admin.
How ridiculous! The Pope speaks out on political matters, so this is a perfectly legitimate thread for the PT Board.
This board is a complex joke sometimes. What a shame.
How ridiculous! The Pope speaks out on political matters, so this is a perfectly legitimate thread for the PT Board.
This board is a complex joke sometimes. What a shame.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:37 am to KCT
Grew up Catholic, but not religious anymore.
I think he is great. Calls out other Catholics/Christians for being hypocritical.
For anyone calling him to liberal you clearly don't pay attention to any of the words of Jesus.
I think he is great. Calls out other Catholics/Christians for being hypocritical.
For anyone calling him to liberal you clearly don't pay attention to any of the words of Jesus.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:40 am to KCT
quote:
(1) Your assessment of some of his more politicized statements & views
Nothing too exciting. Most of the outrage comes from non-Catholics who misinterpret (literally, translations aren't always 100% perfect) and spin his words inaccurately and out of the context in which they were intended.
quote:
(2) How you would compare him to other Popes of the past 50-60 years.
I've only had 3 in my lifetime. JP2, Ben16, and now Francis. Lightyears better than Ben16, but hasn't passed JP2 yet.
Gotta give some extra props to John13 and Paul6. Vatican 2 was a MASSIVE shift for the church. For the better IMO.
JP2 was incredible. Francis has made some incredible strides for the Church. He has a more tender approach that I believe the Church should stand for. Heal the sick, Care for the Poor, Forgive Sinners.
Both have/did faced incredible backlash from the hardliners, and handled it very well.
But the biggest thing, underrated IMO, is his embrace of science and the idea that not everything in the religion is strictly literal. Difficult step to take, and he has done very well with it.
Not to mention, the guy is cool as all get out.
quote:
(3) Do you consider him to be infallible regarding his pronouncements, statements, etc?
Super broad question...for which there are tons of different answers. I'll just mirror the statement from earlier that many people take his words out of context and twist them to an unrecognizable level.
quote:
4) How much impact does he or any other Pope have on (1) Your own views and (2) your own life?
1. Maybe a little, but not too much. Most, if not all, were already there before. 2. Massive. Pope Francis is the first one that I truly was tuned in and paying attention to his conclave, etc. His compassion and tender pragmatism have been inspiring.
quote:
how Catholics feel about Pope Francis
He's ruffled some feathers, but I think most recognize the actions as for the betterment of the Church. The Hardline Right Literal people hate him. But other than that, I think he is pretty beloved for the most part.
Cleaning up the image and major issues with child molestation is not easy.
But I think the proof is in the results. In a time when religion is decaying as a part of life, the Catholic Church has seen a massive rebound of people returning to the sacraments. People feel welcome again.
So overall, pretty darn good.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:41 am to TiketheMiger
quote:
Grew up Catholic, but not religious anymore.
Do you think you're going to heaven? If so, why?
Posted on 6/2/17 at 11:24 am to KCT
I'm not directing my comments at you or anyone else, but ask any Catholic you come into contact with in Louisiana and there's a good chance they've been told by a Baptist or non-denominational person (who are statistically more frequent in rural, southern areas) that they're going to hell and aren't true Christians. Are you actually denying that?
ETA: there was the Catholic basher earlier in the thread who got the whole back and forth started. This has nothing to do with you.
ETA: there was the Catholic basher earlier in the thread who got the whole back and forth started. This has nothing to do with you.
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 11:34 am
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