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Message
re: But tariffs don’t work….
Posted on 3/25/25 at 1:37 pm to David Fellows
Posted on 3/25/25 at 1:37 pm to David Fellows
quote:
Trump has done nothing
So why are you idiot leftists blowing up Tesla dealerships then, tard?
0
Posted on 3/25/25 at 1:42 pm to FlexDawg
So we're going to be happy about this but what about all the other car companies that say prices are going to go up by $20,000 like Dodge and Ford, etc do we just ignore that or something?
Posted on 3/25/25 at 1:49 pm to BCreed1
quote:
That report is always from a pro "free trade" place. Be it liberal or conservative.
I think that Tax Foundation is generally regarded as non-partisan and objective, but even if I'm wrong about that, they weren't just using their own numbers. They cite data from all sorts of sources to come up with their conclusions (and it's all documented and footnoted, if you'd like to see where it comes from).
Feel free to cite sources that show the opposite of their conclusions. There must be some, yeah? If everybody is just showing data that just coincidentally happens to support what basic economic theory predicts because they are biased, then somebody out there must be analyzing the data objectively and coming to a conclusion that turns basic economic theory on its head and supports your position, right?
If not, then maybe it's time to consider the possibility that basic economic theory is correct and that Trump doesn't actually know some secret that the rest of the financial world doesn't.
He's obviously not looking at the long game when it comes to economics, or he wouldn't be doing things like promising to eliminate income taxes for all of these different groups while simultaneously promising to not touch SS/Medicare.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 1:52 pm to Flats
quote:
I admire your optimism but that's way too long for the window lickers to actually read.
Of course, but I'm really trying to repent of calling people stupid. Even if it's true. Jesus thought that posture of the heart was dangerous, so I'm trying to avoid it.
And I can do so by posting something like that and then just waiting for the inevitable Beavis and Butthead reply in which they will reveal their own intelligence level, without me having to say a word.
Which is exactly what happened.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:00 pm to Craig86
quote:
So we're going to be happy about this but what about all the other car companies that say prices are going to go up by $20,000 like Dodge and Ford, etc do we just ignore that or something?
It would take tariffs on most foreign brands for that to happen, but you are correct. The average guy who buys a Ford now b/c a BMW or Mercedes is significantly more expensive is going to see those brands go up even more.
And when they do, why would Ford and Dodge keep their prices the same? That would be foolish.
When tariffs shift the price curve up, the domestic brands will follow. Why wouldn't they?
Let's say a BMW goes up from $80,000 to $110,000 as a result of steep tariffs.
The Ford that used to be $55,000 can move all the way up to $85,000 and maintain the same gap between the Ford and the BMW that they used to have.
Why in the world wouldn't they? Maybe they don't go that high b/c they don't want to trigger people driving their paid for old cars longer, but if someone doesn't think they'll go up to $69,000 from $55,000, I don't know what to tell them.
This post was edited on 3/25/25 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
A trade deficit means you're rich.
We are 36 trillion dollars in debt.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:17 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
I think that Tax Foundation is generally regarded as non-partisan and objective, but even if I'm wrong about that, they weren't just using their own numbers. They cite data from all sorts of sources to come up with their conclusions (and it's all documented and footnoted, if you'd like to see where it comes from).
I very familiar with them. I didn't say they were partisan, I said they are pro free traders. And with that comes bias.
quote:
Feel free to cite sources that show the opposite of their conclusions.
The biggest source is history. Either we were rich and had tariffs or we did not.
quote:
basic economic theory
That we have is relatively new.
quote:
He's obviously not looking at the long game when it comes to economics, or he wouldn't be doing things like promising to eliminate income taxes for all of these different groups while simultaneously promising to not touch SS/Medicare.
Why? Is it because you can't see it due to preconceived ideas?
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:19 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Here's a recent article for y'all from the Tax Foundation on the issue:
And they are "free trade"rs only.
But here we go.
quote:
Tariffs are redistributive.
Free Trade was redistributive.
quote:
History shows tariffs raise costs and prices and lead to lasting economic harm, such as lower production and living standards, whether we keep importing goods or switch to domestic alternatives.
And that's not true. History shows that we gained massive wealth via tariffs. When tariffs became the "boogieman" is when FDR promoted it.
quote:
Instead of accepting lower profits, the business may increase its prices to pass the tariff along to its customers. Imagine customers usually pay $100 for the equipment, but after tariffs they pay $110. When customers pay $10 more for the same product, they have $10 less to spend elsewhere. As people spend less elsewhere, profits for other businesses fall, which reduces incomes for those workers and business owners.
And again... one sided. Now talk about rising wages and more higher paying jobs.
quote:
To see why switching to American-made doesn’t boost production overall takes a bit of international econ background. When imports fall, the dollar becomes stronger, which makes US exports more expensive for foreign customers. Some imports may be replaced by domestic production, but that same drop in imports causes a drop in US exports.
Nope. That assumes there is not a method for companies to use to reduce that. Something free trade only organizations continue to willfully ignore.
Company A sells a product for $100. Due to tariffs, they would have to sell it for $110. That would put them at a disadvantage to other companies inside the USA. If only there was a way to avoid the tariffs.
They consider the option given to them. Build in the USA and they don;t lose market share. Therefore, the tariffs have nothing to do with the price.
quote:
Contrary to the president’s promises, the tariffs will cause short-term pain and long-term pain, no matter the ways people and businesses change their behavior.
And once again... it's a one sided story.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:25 pm to SDVTiger
quote:
So you still cant provide any math
Where is your math, SDV? Prove that tariffs work, with math.
There is not one guy on this board who could make an effective argument either way WITH MATH.
This post was edited on 3/25/25 at 2:25 pm
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:32 pm to Fat Bastard
quote:
yet proves again you are dumber than dirt because you possess zero reading comprehension skills.
This is the closest you get to content. There is nothing in your post but an unsubstantiated insult. You say I have no comprehension skills, which is manifestly untrue, and you don’t explain why.
You and SDV are all about ad hominem attacks with no substantiation. I have explained the anti-tariff position, and I have contributed one of the seminal papers on how tariffs affected the industrialization of America. You have contributed…insults.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 2:52 pm to BCreed1
It is a one sided story. It makes you wonder why they refuse history, results, and logic.
What happened is that conservatives purchased the libertarians economics.
Conservatives have never been no gov involvement at all. Never. Yes we believe less involvement, but not zero.
Libertarians economists also believe that the free movement of people is great for the economy and free trade is linked to that.
What happened is that conservatives purchased the libertarians economics.
Conservatives have never been no gov involvement at all. Never. Yes we believe less involvement, but not zero.
Libertarians economists also believe that the free movement of people is great for the economy and free trade is linked to that.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:26 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Libertarians economists also believe that the free movement of people is great for the economy and free trade is linked to that.
Who are the "libertarian economists"?
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:30 pm to BCreed1
quote:
The biggest source is history. Either we were rich and had tariffs or we did not.
Please explain in which era this occurred?
quote:
basic economic theory
That we have is relatively new.
Adam Smith wrote the Wealth of Nations in 1776.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:31 pm to BCreed1
quote:
Either we were rich and had tariffs or we did not.
That's dumb and you know it.
We also had muskets. I say we were rich because we had muskets, not because we had tariffs. Prove otherwise using your logic here.
quote:
That we have is relatively new.
And it was proven correct in 2018. No matter how far y'all move the goalposts (we're out in the parking lot right now, btw), you can't get away from that.
I've posted analysis that shows that they did exactly what the theory predicted. Where is your analysis showing otherwise?
Not to mention, these are not difficult concepts. They may involve many factors, so it may be laborious to pull all of the data together for a full analysis, but the concepts are as simple as "I have a glass filled halfway with liquid. If I drop a golf ball sized rock in that glass, will the liquid rise, fall, or stay the same?"
quote:
Why? Is it because you can't see it due to preconceived ideas?
If you call being able to look at a pie chart of the federal budget and being able to comprehend simple math (and I mean as simple as, we're spending more than we're taking in) a "pre-concieved idea," then sure.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:33 pm to Ten Bears
quote:
Please explain in which era this occurred?
As talked about by a poster earlier in the thread, in 1914, we were the richest nation on earth.
Our federal government was funded by tariffs.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:34 pm to BCreed1
quote:
Company A sells a product for $100. Due to tariffs, they would have to sell it for $110. That would put them at a disadvantage to other companies inside the USA. If only there was a way to avoid the tariffs.
They consider the option given to them. Build in the USA and they don;t lose market share. Therefore, the tariffs have nothing to do with the price.
Having read this "analysis," I now understand how little you understand about this whole thing and how it works, so I will not be responding to your posts any more unless or until you include someone else's analysis who actually understands.
I'm retired and all, but my time is worth something.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:42 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
quote:
Either we were rich and had tariffs or we did not.
That's dumb and you know it.
We also had muskets. I say we were rich because we had muskets, not because we had tariffs. Prove otherwise using your logic here.
I'm not so sure he is wrong. According to some in this thread, that is not possible. Tariffs are evil and causes great depressions.
Second, you just got through talking about how conversations get derailed into shouting matches...paraphrased. Yet you are here claiming it to be dumb.
Why not state your case on why that never took place.
quote:
And it was proven correct in 2018. No matter how far y'all move the goalposts (we're out in the parking lot right now, btw), you can't get away from that.
No goal posts are moved. He stated clearly that there is a flaw in what you are presenting because there are causes and effects.
You presented cause and effects of cost associated on prices and prices alone.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:45 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Having read this "analysis," I now understand how little you understand about this whole thing and how it works, so I will not be responding to your posts any more unless or until you include someone else's analysis who actually understands.
In other words, you can not refute that. How is he wrong?
Posted on 3/25/25 at 3:55 pm to David Fellows
quote:
So why are you idiot leftists blowing up Tesla dealerships then, tard?
TIL: DeSantis is a leftist, I have a strong suspicion you've voted for far more democrats than you have.
But I bought a Tesla, not blowing them up.
Posted on 3/25/25 at 4:18 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
As talked about by a poster earlier in the thread, in 1914, we were the richest nation on earth.
Our federal government was funded by tariffs.
Cool... so I can assume you will be advocating for the elimination of the 40-hour week, overtime pay, child labor laws, and all environmental and safety regulations, as well? And y'all are bitching about no taxes on overtime. Imagine not making overtime but working the same hours. But those insane policies had nothing to do with the economic growth of the late 1800s. It was all tariffs.
Regardless, our per capita GDP, adjusted for inflation, is 6 times higher NOW than it was then. Our SOL is much higher now than it has ever been. There are more wealthy people as a percentage of population NOW than there was then.
In 1890, 92% of families made less than $1,200 / year, which is $37K in todays' dollars. Imagine 92% of families in this country making less than $37 k per year right now.
Just stop with the nonsense that things were so much better because of tariffs in 1870. It's not even intellectually dishonest. It's an outright lie.
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