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re: Budget comparisons between St George & other Louisiana cities
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:23 am to BugAC
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:23 am to BugAC
quote:Why?
It equally decreases the credibility of those saying how much St. George would need is different from what they say.
We have examples of other city governments both inside EBR and outside the parish to compare their costs versus what the SG organizers claim what SG will need to operate.
Where the money goes is unrelated to where it comes from.
3
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:25 am to dewster
quote:Your point has given me a reason to go back and look at Dr. Richardson's report again.
The lack of clarity over the source of tax revenue also undermines the argument that incorporation would be catastrophic for Baton Rouge or that St George would definitely have to raise taxes....
I only glanced through it when it was released so I don't know if it made an attempt to estimate where the taxes came from. I would think he would have had to do that in order to identify what SG would be getting from where and how much BR would be losing.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:33 am to LSURussian
The problem with that estimate is that a significant portion of public services in East Baton Rouge are provided by the parish via dedicated tax (such as the one for libraries, parks, or transportation infrastructure), service fees, or a unique taxing district, such as the St George Fire district. Those won't change with incorporation. I think this method is one of the reason's EBR's credit rating is so solid. A lot of municipalities actually provide those services and thus have higher costs.
What new services would St George need to provide with incorporation other than the costs of a new school district?
A better estimate might be to extrapolate Central's budget (outside of what they spend on schools) with some kind of idea of the sales tax base within St George. I'll have to look into that after work.
What new services would St George need to provide with incorporation other than the costs of a new school district?
A better estimate might be to extrapolate Central's budget (outside of what they spend on schools) with some kind of idea of the sales tax base within St George. I'll have to look into that after work.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 11:36 am
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:36 am to LSURussian
quote:
Why?
We have examples of other city governments both inside EBR and outside the parish to compare their costs versus what the SG organizers claim what SG will need to operate.
Where the money goes is unrelated to where it comes from.
What i'm saying is neither side knows how much money is coming from St. George, thus neither side knows how much it will cost to run St. George. also, there are a multitude of factors that go into city budgets and it's not simply based on population. You also have to take into account what tax bases already exist in the area, what tax bases do not exist, etc...
It's not as simple as your first post of this thread. You do not know how much it will cost. It could cost more than those listed, it could cost less, neither of us know, and to claim we do would be stupid.
What is fact is that SG needs to give a detailed breakdown of tax sources, and expenditures of what the city will actually cost, and whether or not we'd have to raise taxes or not.
But each city is unique and different. They don't form a cookie cutter mold of sources of tax revenue. For instance, if SG forms, they will not have the tax revenue generated from the Oil and Gas industry or the ports, unless that money is being provided to the Parish, which i think it is anyway. So there are a lot of factors that you, nor I, know or consider.
That doesn't mean we need to cut off debate. But it does mean, without equivocation, that no one here, not even the BR council, the Mayor, nor the SG organizers know the exact impact that will happen on the economy. These types of numbers and facts will take many months to gather, and it should.
The Mayor and some of the city council members actions do nothing but hurry the process along without all the facts being divulged.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:49 am to Elcid96
quote:
My guess is they wouldn't mind paying more, if they actually got something in return and saw a better use of their tax dollars. Why is this so hard to understand.
EXACTLY!! I will pay more if I have to. That doesn't matter. A few hundred dollars a thousand what does it matter. If I have to pay 10-15k a year to send my kid to school I will gladly accept the increase tax trade off over what private schools would cost. A good public school is a lot cheaper on my wallet then private school. What is the argument against that? That is all that has been said to oppose this. Tax tax tax like that's supposed to scare the voters away. It's not going to, so stop being annoying.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:03 pm to ThreauxDown11
quote:LSURussian will say that is fine, but at the same time say that those proposing the new city are flat out lying to us and are deceiving us which they are not.
EXACTLY!! I will pay more if I have to. That doesn't matter. A few hundred dollars a thousand what does it matter. If I have to pay 10-15k a year to send my kid to school I will gladly accept the increase tax trade off over what private schools would cost. A good public school is a lot cheaper on my wallet then private school. What is the argument against that? That is all that has been said to oppose this. Tax tax tax like that's supposed to scare the voters away. It's not going to, so stop being annoying.
BTW, I feel the same way you do and don't even have any kids and never will. I'm just tired of seeing everyone leave.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:06 pm to dewster
quote:Doesn't that apply to both Baker and Zachary?
The problem with that estimate is that a significant portion of public services in East Baton Rouge are provided by the parish via dedicated tax (such as the one for libraries, parks, or transportation infrastructure), service fees, or a unique taxing district, such as the St George Fire district.
They are both in EBR. They both have EBR libraries, EBR infrastructure, etc.
quote:We're not talking about a new city with 20,000 people covering only 15 square miles. SG would have a population of 107,000 and covers 85 square miles, which would make it larger than the city limits area of Baton Rouge, 79 square miles.
What new services would St George need to provide with incorporation other than the costs of a new school district?
The city would have to come up with new government elected leaders, new city administrative services such as finance and budgeting, HR, legal, DPW, emergency plans, federal and state government compliance and required services for a city, new city court system, new city government facilities and their operating costs, new licensing services and employees to issue those licenses and permits, new city street construction, city street maintenance, setting up new city ordinances and enforcement of them, city communication system, new city vehicles, including DPW trucks, and the biggest of all, IMO, is police.
Yeah, I know the sheriff will do it.
But that won't last long. The sheriff's office is not equipped for crime scene investigations and does not have a crime lab. When the sheriff needs those services now, he just turns to BRPD because of the cooperative agreement for those services between BRPD and the sheriff. That's why when there is a violent crime in the Gardere area now, which is outside the city, you always see sheriff's deputies there alongside BRPD investigators.
BRPD will be less inclined to provide those services to another city, if at all, at least not for free. So money will have to come from somewhere to pay for that.
And now if the sheriff can't respond to a crime call outside the city limits for whatever reason, he can request assistance from BRPD to take the call. That is part of the cooperative agreement between the two law enforcement agencies. The sheriff is not staffed to maintain full police protection for over 100,000 people spread out over 85 square miles. It's just not doable without a drastic increase in manpower and equipment.
Most people fail to realize the EBR sheriff's primary responsibility is to run the parish prison. Almost half (350+ deputies out of 800) of the total sheriff's staff work exclusively at the prison, not patrolling the street.
And then there's his property tax collection duties as required by state law.....
And how long do you think it will take before the sheriff and a new power hungry elected mayor have a falling out and the mayor wants to have his own police force? Not long. I give it 5 years, tops.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:12 pm to ThreauxDown11
Even the most conservative suburban districts usually get behind taxes to support local schools if necessary.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:12 pm to ThreauxDown11
quote:You're referring to school costs and we're not even talking about those. We're only referring to the costs of running a new city government, not a new school system. The new school system will cost even more in increased taxes. (Just look at what Zachary did when they started their new district.) Plus, a new school system is far from guaranteed even if there is a new city created.
r. A few hundred dollars a thousand what does it matter. If I have to pay 10-15k a year to send my kid to school I will gladly accept the increase tax trade off over what private schools would cost.
And it won't be 'a few hundred a thousand...." It will cost anyone with a $250,000-$300,000 home a couple thousand dollars more a year, forever, for the new property taxes. And that applies to the residents who don't have children or no children of school age.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:16 pm to dewster
quote:I agree. Both Zachary and Central voted to increase their property taxes substantially to pay for their new school districts.
Even the most conservative suburban districts usually get behind taxes to support local schools if necessary.
Zachary's school property taxes almost doubled and Central's increased about 60%.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:17 pm to LSURussian
I agree that St George will be responsible for a larger share of law enforcement costs much the way Central is with EBRSO service in their city......but what about being incorporated makes 100,000 people over 85 square miles so much more difficult to patrol than it did before incorporation that it would necessitate a massive new police force beyond what already exists?
I could certainly envision a scenario where some additional manpower would be needed, and even see a tax proposal on a ballot in the future to beef up police protection.....but not an instant need for a massive new police force.
St George will need planning department, design review department, and administration including a city court (which in some cases is revenue generator). None of those are crippling overhead costs to a city with 100,000 people.
I could certainly envision a scenario where some additional manpower would be needed, and even see a tax proposal on a ballot in the future to beef up police protection.....but not an instant need for a massive new police force.
St George will need planning department, design review department, and administration including a city court (which in some cases is revenue generator). None of those are crippling overhead costs to a city with 100,000 people.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:22 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Zachary's school property taxes almost doubled and Central's increased about 60%.
they plan on issuing bonds based on sales tax increases because some will derive from people in surrounding areas.
It will be marketed as "a cent for St George" or "1 cent for schools".
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:27 pm to LSURussian
Zachary was clever with their schools. Do they still have one facility for every grade in middle school and high school?
Hard to argue a deseg case with a setup like that.
Their facilities are amazing, and their performance is impressive. Seems like they are always expanding and building new schools.
Public schools is were St George will have to raise taxes....especially if they want all those new facilities, magnet programs, and accelerated courses like they are proposing.
Hard to argue a deseg case with a setup like that.
Their facilities are amazing, and their performance is impressive. Seems like they are always expanding and building new schools.
Public schools is were St George will have to raise taxes....especially if they want all those new facilities, magnet programs, and accelerated courses like they are proposing.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 12:32 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:34 pm to dewster
quote:I explained that already. There will likely no longer be a cooperative agreement between the sheriff and BRPD for backup services when needed. Why would BR taxpayers want its police officers working outside the city in that situation?
but what about being incorporated makes 100,000 people over 85 square miles so much more difficult to patrol than it did before incorporation that it would necessitate a massive new police force beyond what already exists?
Remember the sheriff only has 103 patrol deputies in the 3 substations in the SG area. And that counts all 30 deputies currently in the Central City substation. Obviously some or most of those 30 deputies only work in Central City.
For a full 24 hour police force providing three full shifts of patrol officers, 90-100 patrol officers breaks down to only about 30-33 officers on the streets for any one shift.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:38 pm to dewster
quote:I don't know.
Zachary was clever with their schools. Do they still have one facility for every grade in middle school and high school?
quote:Of course they will.
Public schools is were St George will have to raise taxes....especially if they want all those new facilities, magnet programs, and accelerated courses like they are proposing.
As long as the leaders are honest about it and stop putting on their website they do not anticipate any increase in taxes, I have no reason to complain about the process.
I still won't like the separation, but at least people know what they are getting into if they vote for the change.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:40 pm to LSURussian
quote:
There will likely no longer be a cooperative agreement between the sheriff and BRPD for backup services when needed. Why would BR taxpayers want its police officers working outside the city in that situation?
Why are we assuming cooperative agreements come to an end? Is this just out of spite or is there some legal reason that adjacent municipalities in my state have cooperative agreements but those in East Baton Rouge, La won't?
quote:I know the personnel numbers. Why would they need vastly more deputies than what already exists? That was not the case in Sandy Springs, Ga or Central City, La. Why would St George instantly need vastly expanded law enforcement protection over what they have now? Yes, I am aware that they will be responsible for a larger share of their law enforcement costs, but they'll also be retaining more of their own sales tax revenue.
I explained it already
Like I said....I can envision a future dedicated tax for a significantly expanded law enforcement agency as the capitol area grows, but the instant need for a vastly expanded police force has not been clearly articulated.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:46 pm to LSURussian
quote:
quote:
quote:
Public schools is were St George will have to raise taxes....especially if they want all those new facilities, magnet programs, and accelerated courses like they are proposing.
Of course they will.
As long as the leaders are honest about it and stop putting on their website they do not anticipate any increase in taxes, I have no reason to complain about the process.
I still won't like the separation, but at least people know what they are getting into if they vote for the change.
Their website indicates that they don't anticipate new taxes with incorporation. It does not say that they don't anticpate a need for more tax revenue with the creation of a new school district. I've pointed this out before but you either didn't read my post or ignored it.
Per their website:
quote:
Q: Will my taxes go up if we incorporate?
A: Taxes shouldn’t have to be raised to support a new city.
Currently, residents in the proposed area pay 11 mills less a year than residents in Baton Rouge. Sales tax revenue will be the lion’s share of the revenue for new city. Currently the proposed area generates approximately $65 million a year in sales tax revenue alone.
As I've said before...even the most conservative suburban areas (this has been true in all of the large metros I've lived in) support additional taxes for independent school districts. From what I can tell, the future St. George independent school district has an instant need for up to $100 million for new schools that they'll have to borrow and they have a wish list for 4 more schools in the more distant future - but they also have an incredible sales tax base with a significant regional draw, 100,000+ stakeholders, and plenty of additional land to develop.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:52 pm to LSURussian
quote:
But why don't the organizers just tell the truth and let people decide based on facts and not on fantasy and lies?
It isn't like being a part of the City of Baton Rouge isn't based on fantasy and lies.
CATS, downtown theme park, etc...
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:06 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Its the Parish's. A vote to annex an area into BR has to be approved through Parish government, meaning all residents of the Parish get a say - not just the city and the proposed area of annexation.
Wrong areas contiguous to the city of BR could have been annexed years ago, and it was the logical thing to do; however, they weren't.
This thing has been brewing for a long time. You have established and mature neighborhoods adjacent to the city limits that were never taken in. Neighborhoods built up in the 60s and 70s along with commercial developments.
You are looking at the situation today, I'm looking at the situation over time.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:10 pm to LSURussian
quote:
If anything, the lack of "where does it come from" increases the lack of credibility of the SG organizers who claim to know where their taxes would come from.
Apparently the city's consultant knows where sales taxes come from or he would not have been able to say that if St. George becomes a city the rest of the metro govt. would lose 53 million dollars.
The numbers must be available or both sides are making things up, right????
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