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Message
re: Biden considering pardoning Mark Milley
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:03 am to OMLandshark
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:03 am to OMLandshark
The left is confusing pardons with immunity. Pardon happens post conviction. Immunity is granted prior to the illegal deed.
If these fricks committed crimes and were never prosecuted then they have no protection, other than from a judge at sentencing or from the current president.
If these fricks committed crimes and were never prosecuted then they have no protection, other than from a judge at sentencing or from the current president.
1
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:03 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
What does it mean for the rest of us?
Burdick was a case holding that a pardon has to be accepted by the individual being pardoned, among other things related to the process such as the pardon having to be introduced in Court to be invoked by a defendant.
In the decision there is language indicating that a pardon carries with it an imputation of guilt, and that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. Ford carried that language around with him after he pardoned Nixon.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:04 am to SlowFlowPro
I ain't talking to you. The other guy with italicized Burdick.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:04 am to OMLandshark
Can a pardon keep Trump from recalling him to active duty?
Then assign him to a post in the outer regions of Nigeria. At a remote base with him and a few other military traitors like Vindman. No cell or sat phones.
Cant retired personnel be recalled?
Then assign him to a post in the outer regions of Nigeria. At a remote base with him and a few other military traitors like Vindman. No cell or sat phones.
Cant retired personnel be recalled?
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:05 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
I ain't talking to you. The other guy with italicized Burdick.
I replied that way because I knew I was responding to a lawyer.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:05 am to Indefatigable
quote:
I replied that way because I knew I was responding to a lawyer.
I almost added that qualifier to my post
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:06 am to alphaandomega
quote:
Cant retired personnel be recalled?
Yes they can. Milley will skate on this. It's the remaining general officers who will pay the price if their minds aren't in the right place.
In one way this just reenforces that the democrats and their president are corrupt.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:10 am to aTmTexas Dillo
There may still be something here, but I don't know what happened later in the case discussed below.
Sept 2021 from well known military justice attorney Philip Cave
With the Trump pardons, the question came up, again, whether accepting a Presidential pardon is an acknowledgment of guilt.
For many, Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1925), answered the question in the affirmative. In Burdick, the appellant was offered but declined a pardon. He then refused to testify in a criminal trial. Several conclusions seem to follow from the opinion.
A pardon can be given before conviction and sentence. If correct, this settles the discussion about several Trump pardons issued before the servicemember was tried.
A pardon can be refused and there is “no power in a court to force it on [the person].” @90.
Acceptance of a pardon “implies” acceptance of guilt. @91.
“This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.” @94.
It is from this language that people thought accepting a pardon was accepting guilt.
Now along comes Lorrance v. Commandant, USDB, a decision from the 10th Circuit. Here is the nub of it.
Does acceptance of a pardon and release from custody equal a “confession?”
Does acceptance of a pardon and release from custody waive or forfeit the right to petition for habeas corpus?
The Tenth concludes that there is no confession and Lorrance does not otherwise lose his right to petition for habeas corpus relief for his court-martial conviction and sentence. The case was remanded for further action not inconsistent with the court’s opinion.
“The writ of habeas corpus shall not extend to a prisoner unless” the prisoner is “in custody.” 28 U.S.C. § 2241(c). Notwithstanding that provision, a petitioner’s release from custody does not automatically moot a habeas petition. Carafas v. LaVallee, 391 U.S. 234, 237–38 (1968). Instead, a habeas petitioner can maintain his habeas action following his release from custody if he can identify “collateral consequences” constituting “disabilities or burdens [which] may flow from petitioner’s conviction.” Id. (quotations omitted).”
According to the court, there remained serious collateral consequences from the conviction.
Backpay,u
Rank.
VA benefits.
Retirement years credit.
Expungement of the conviction.
In a historical review of the pardon power and its effect, the court finds that the implication in Burdick is dicta and has been taken out of context. Among other facts, the court honed in on this,
“The U.S. Pardon Attorney included a letter to Lorance with the presidential pardon. Among other things, the letter informed Lorance, “A presidential pardon is a sign of forgiveness. It does not erase or expunge the record of conviction and does not indicate innocence.” (Id. at 80 (emphasis added).) The letter does not state that acceptance of the pardon is a confession of guilt or a waiver of habeas rights.”
The Tenth Circuit is generally known as unwelcoming to military prisoners when a writ of habeas corpus is before the district and appellate court. While many can disagree with the issuance of pardons by President Trump, the issues discussed in Lorrance are important and appear proper.
Now we need to know if the DoJ will petition the Supreme Court.
This would appear to leave the door open to consequences.
Sept 2021 from well known military justice attorney Philip Cave
With the Trump pardons, the question came up, again, whether accepting a Presidential pardon is an acknowledgment of guilt.
For many, Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1925), answered the question in the affirmative. In Burdick, the appellant was offered but declined a pardon. He then refused to testify in a criminal trial. Several conclusions seem to follow from the opinion.
A pardon can be given before conviction and sentence. If correct, this settles the discussion about several Trump pardons issued before the servicemember was tried.
A pardon can be refused and there is “no power in a court to force it on [the person].” @90.
Acceptance of a pardon “implies” acceptance of guilt. @91.
“This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.” @94.
It is from this language that people thought accepting a pardon was accepting guilt.
Now along comes Lorrance v. Commandant, USDB, a decision from the 10th Circuit. Here is the nub of it.
Does acceptance of a pardon and release from custody equal a “confession?”
Does acceptance of a pardon and release from custody waive or forfeit the right to petition for habeas corpus?
The Tenth concludes that there is no confession and Lorrance does not otherwise lose his right to petition for habeas corpus relief for his court-martial conviction and sentence. The case was remanded for further action not inconsistent with the court’s opinion.
“The writ of habeas corpus shall not extend to a prisoner unless” the prisoner is “in custody.” 28 U.S.C. § 2241(c). Notwithstanding that provision, a petitioner’s release from custody does not automatically moot a habeas petition. Carafas v. LaVallee, 391 U.S. 234, 237–38 (1968). Instead, a habeas petitioner can maintain his habeas action following his release from custody if he can identify “collateral consequences” constituting “disabilities or burdens [which] may flow from petitioner’s conviction.” Id. (quotations omitted).”
According to the court, there remained serious collateral consequences from the conviction.
Backpay,u
Rank.
VA benefits.
Retirement years credit.
Expungement of the conviction.
In a historical review of the pardon power and its effect, the court finds that the implication in Burdick is dicta and has been taken out of context. Among other facts, the court honed in on this,
“The U.S. Pardon Attorney included a letter to Lorance with the presidential pardon. Among other things, the letter informed Lorance, “A presidential pardon is a sign of forgiveness. It does not erase or expunge the record of conviction and does not indicate innocence.” (Id. at 80 (emphasis added).) The letter does not state that acceptance of the pardon is a confession of guilt or a waiver of habeas rights.”
The Tenth Circuit is generally known as unwelcoming to military prisoners when a writ of habeas corpus is before the district and appellate court. While many can disagree with the issuance of pardons by President Trump, the issues discussed in Lorrance are important and appear proper.
Now we need to know if the DoJ will petition the Supreme Court.
This would appear to leave the door open to consequences.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:15 am to aTmTexas Dillo
I'll say it again. He's going to grant Fauci, Milley, Smith, and others immunity to stop the problems in DC from ever being fixed. Its not if, but when.
Hunter was a trial balloon for political fallout. Now the media is floating these pardons for the same reason.
Hunter was a trial balloon for political fallout. Now the media is floating these pardons for the same reason.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:20 am to SlowFlowPro
If presidential pardoning is absolute, could he pardon an assassin for his future assassination against Trump?
It seems if you can give absolute immunity, why not?
It seems if you can give absolute immunity, why not?
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:24 am to OMLandshark
3/4s of Washington DC may well be pardoned before Potato ambles his way out of the White House in late January.
Crooked, guilty as frick scoundrels they are.
Crooked, guilty as frick scoundrels they are.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:24 am to Festus
quote:
If presidential pardoning is absolute, could he pardon an assassin for his future assassination against Trump?
That would be a future act, which probably would test the power.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:26 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
I'll say it again. He's going to grant Fauci, Milley, Smith, and others immunity to stop the problems in DC from ever being fixed. It's not if, but when.
Kinda agree. But Biden is a criminal POS. And democrats are fine with that. What else should we expect?
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:26 am to Vacherie Saint
Biden's pardon can't save Milley from being recalled and demoted. Hit him in the pocketbook bust him as far as allowable and take away any clearances he may have
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:26 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Oh yes the president can. Think Hunter going back to 2014.
Think, it hasn’t been challenged, ever.
This post was edited on 12/6/24 at 10:28 am
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:28 am to BugAC
quote:
The left is confusing pardons with immunity. Pardon happens post conviction. Immunity is granted prior to the illegal deed.
I don't think it's a matter of "confusion."
I'm still optimistic enough to think they aren't really going to go this route with every potential controversial figure in their administration, though. I'm frequently naive that way.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:31 am to bamaswallows
quote:
Hunters pardon did just that, tho
Sounds like some right wing legal groups should file lawsuits that challenge the legality and validity of pardoning someone for crimes they've never even been charged with, let alone convicted of.
Otherwise, what's to stop every future president from just issuing blanket pardons to everyone who worked in their administration right before they leave office?
This post was edited on 12/6/24 at 10:33 am
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:33 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
Trump should just remain quiet until he gets in office, and then do WHATEVER IT TAKES to sic the legal dogs on these traitors. Find a way to make their lives miserable. They earned it.
This right here. I don’t like the announcements of plans and moves before inauguration. Don’t give the media and the left a damn thing to chew on other than what’s absolutely necessary for transition, then unleash hell on Jan. 20.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 10:34 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
I'm still optimistic enough to think they aren't really going to go this route with every potential controversial figure in their administration, though. I'm frequently naive that way.
In accepting pardons they accept the implication of guilt as I read it from the comments. Milley was way out of line with his actions. He is in legal jeopardy.
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