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re: Besides Jesus or Mohammed, who are the most influential figures in history?
Posted on 1/10/24 at 8:28 pm to Prodigal Son
Posted on 1/10/24 at 8:28 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Really? You come away from that, thinking that there was another Moses? Don’t you think that it’s at least possible, if not likely, that Manetho’s account vs the Biblical account is something like a modern day liberal media account of Trump vs a conservative account of Trump- wherein the two accounts describe the same person and/or events in almost completely contradictory ways?
The “other” Moses were people from different time periods with different characteristics doing different things. Maybe they were even loosely tied to the biblical Moses, but since nothing of those other Moses match the one described in the Bible, I’d allege they were describing different characters.
1
Posted on 1/10/24 at 8:30 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Interesting, that you attack the website and not the material.
Yes.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 9:10 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Now, a little “evidence” for you to dismiss (out of hand). gotquestions.org
Speculation, wishful thinking, and delusions…
quote:
op ten discoveries related to Moses and the Exodus
None are evidence of a population of over 50% of Egypt leaving and going across Sinai to Canaan.
quote:
The Merneptah Stele
Pretty awesome that a group of people called Israel - named for the high god of the Canaanite pantheon - existed around 1200BCE right around the time of the Bronze Age collapse. It isn’t evidence of the biblical exodus but is really cool nonetheless.
quote:
Question- what is the difference when an atheist claims that science will undoubtedly answer all questions (consciousness comes to mind, along with the actual origin of life)
I don’t know any atheists who claim this. However, just because there are unknowns about nature doesn’t mean that a god did it or that the Christian god did it.
quote:
Identical? That’s quite a stretch- even for you. Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Anything besides the subjective interpretation of competing worldviews?
Bible Stories
There’s some great stuff in that link including how Psalm 104 is a copy of pharoah Ahkenaten’s poem to his god Aten (or Adon in Hebrew… oddly enough Jews call their god Adonai “my Adon”)
Moses is a composite character. He was born in danger of being murdered and had to be sent down river in a basket sealed with tar to be rescued and rose up to become a great leader like King Sargon of Akkad, whose story predates Moses.
Sargon of Akkad
Moses embodied the principles of Ahkenaten, the worship of Aten (the world’s first monotheistic religion). The Jews even call Yahweh by the title Aten/Adon because they are too scared to utter his name Yahweh.
Aten to Adonai
Moses plagiarizes the code of Hammurabi.
Exodus laws are from Hammurabi
Moses adopts the story of Pharoah Snefru splitting the sea.
Snefru splits sea to retrieve turquoise pendant
Lots of types of stories her re-used over and over. The Sargon myth to Moses myth ended up in Matthew when Herod is going to kill all the infant boys and they have to flee to of all places Egypt. Joshua like Snefru and like Moses parts the water for safe passage of people.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 9:19 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Maybe they were even loosely tied to the biblical Moses
That’s all I’m saying. It’s at least possible. I believe that it’s likely. You believe (or, allege) it’s not. I’m happy to agree to disagree.
That’s the thing with evidence (of all kinds)- it inevitably, and invariably, requires interpretation. That interpretation will be inevitably and invariably biased by the observer’s presupposed worldview.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 9:22 pm to TrueTiger
frick Lincoln
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:27 pm to sms151t
Lewis & Clark. They were fearless studs.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 11:29 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Speculation, wishful thinking, and delusions
Well… that’s just, like- your opinion, man.
quote:
None are evidence of a population of over 50% of Egypt leaving and going across Sinai to Canaan
But evidence, nonetheless. You asked for evidence- I gave you some. Yet, again you move the goalposts. That’s not a good look.
quote:
I don’t know any atheists who claim this.(science will answer the hard question of consciousness and the origin of life)
I seriously doubt that. I think you’re just trying to avoid the obvious- faith is faith. Whether it’s faith in God, or faith in science- its faith. We all have it, and we all put it in something or someone. Because that’s how we were created.
quote:
Bible Stories There’s some great stuff in that link
Ummm… yeahhh… “ For agnostics and liberal believers…” (from the link)
None of these links disproves my assertion- that one’s presupposed worldview dictates the bias of his/her interpretation of evidence.
quote:
King Sargon of Akkad, whose story predates Moses.
That depends on who you ask.
Moses' life, including the stories of his birth, are recorded in Exodus. Different scholars will date the writing of Exodus more conservatively or more liberally (depending upon their inherent bias) from the 15th Century BC to the 7th Century BC. The chronology of the story places Moses in the 15th Century BC, however.
Sargon lived and ruled in the 23rd Century BC. However, it seems that most of what we know about him, including the events of his story similar to Moses', are from cuneiform tablets written in about 650 BC called The Legend of Sargon. These tablets were discovered as part of the library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh in the 19th Century AD.
Before I go any further, I’d like to point something out. The elephant in the room. If you applied the same level of skepticism to any of these accounts as you do to the Bible- you could not believe any of them. If you applied the same level of skepticism to life in general as you do to the Christian God- you would be paralyzed by fear. My point being, that you exercise your faith (blindly in many cases) innumerable times every day. You just refuse to place it where it belongs. You save all of your skepticism for God alone. It is a continual act of willful ignorance. There is zero evidence that there is no God- yet this is what you believe.
However, I understand. You can’t make yourself believe something. It’s a mysterious phenomenon- belief. I can’t make myself believe that there is no God. I tried, hard, and for a long time. All I see, when I read your posts, and links, and scholars- is the living proof of Romans chapter one. Conversely, I see how you feel the same when reading my posts, links, scholars, etc. And through all of this, to me, it only lends more credibility to the Word of God- as I see how accurately the Biblical worldview describes the world and people around me. From my perspective, it really is a pity that you’re not a Christian. You have more knowledge than most Christians I know. You could be such a force for good. I don’t know what God has planned for you. But I pray that He draws you to Himself.
I’m happy to continue- tomorrow. It’s late, and I need sleep.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 11:39 pm to sms151t
William Shakespeare
Martin Luther
Paul
Isaac Newton
Alexander the Great
Charles Darwin
Genghis Khan
Just off top of head
Martin Luther
Paul
Isaac Newton
Alexander the Great
Charles Darwin
Genghis Khan
Just off top of head
Posted on 1/11/24 at 12:47 am to TigerRoyale
quote:
No one said Hitler? OK, Hitler.
The History Channel owes their existence to him.
And without him, political opponents couldn't be called Hitler.
So there's that.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 5:35 am to sms151t
quote:
Besides Jesus or Mohammed, who are the most influential figures in history?
I would say neither
#1 who be the human that became the first pimp
Pimpin is global and had been around longer than any religion.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 6:42 am to Prodigal Son
quote:quote:
None are evidence of a population of over 50% of Egypt leaving and going across Sinai to Canaan
But evidence, nonetheless. You asked for evidence- I gave you some. Yet, again you move the goalposts. That’s not a good look.
You gave no evidence because there isn’t any. No goalposts were moved. An inscription that Israel existed, and evidence of an Israelite slave in Egypt, is not evidence of the biblical exodus ever more than half the population of Egypt left and went to Canaan. There were Egyptian slaves in Canaan, and even more specifically in the part of Canaan known as Israel.
quote:
I seriously doubt that. I think you’re just trying to avoid the obvious- faith is faith. Whether it’s faith in God, or faith in science- its faith. We all have it, and we all put it in something or someone. Because that’s how we were created.
It’s sad that you continue to try to equate science with faith. To quote a famous Atheist - science is the “antithesis of faith—it requires that all assumptions be questioned, that all proposed explanations be based on demonstrable evidence, and that all hypotheses be testable and potentially falsifiable”. While faith is the belief without evidence, in this case the belief in magic.
quote:
Moses' life, including the stories of his birth, are recorded in Exodus. Different scholars will date the writing of Exodus more conservatively or more liberally (depending upon their inherent bias) from the 15th Century BC to the 7th Century BC. The chronology of the story places Moses in the 15th Century BC, however.
Well in the 15th century there’s no record of the paleo Hebrew alphabet (similar to Phoenician) even existing yet. Other Canaanites speaking the same language as the Israelites were still writing in Cuneiform in 1000BCE. I’d question the credentials of a scholar who puts the Exodus myth at 1500BCE. 7th century is getting closer, but it most likely was the very late 6th century or even 5th century post-Babylonian exile. The myth was created by the Persians to give the returning exiles a divine excuse to take the land from the people who were already living there - the Judean nobility backed by Persia with newfound religion looked down on the existing people (common folk who weren’t exiled by Babylon) to the point that the nobility called them Canaanites.
quote:
Sargon lived and ruled in the 23rd Century BC. However, it seems that most of what we know about him, including the events of his story similar to Moses', are from cuneiform tablets written in about 650 BC called The Legend of Sargon. These tablets were discovered as part of the library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh in the 19th Century AD.
Yes the tablets you are referring to are from the library of king Ashurbanipal. Those were copies of the originals. Experts - not you and me - but real experts on Akkadian culture, history, language, and composition put that story at about 2200-2100BCE during the time of the Akkadian empire.
quote:
Before I go any further, I’d like to point something out. The elephant in the room. If you applied the same level of skepticism to any of these accounts as you do to the Bible- you could not believe any of them.
If you applied the same level of scrutiny to the tablet found a Ashurbanipal‘s library, then you would have to consider that the earliest Greek manuscripts we have of the gospels dating to around 300-400CE means that they must’ve been written about 300-400CE.
quote:
There is zero evidence that there is no God- yet this is what you believe.
You’re way off. Maybe there’s zero evidence there is no god but there’s also zero evidence there is a god. I just acknowledge reality and what we can know.
quote:
However, I understand. You can’t make yourself believe something. It’s a mysterious phenomenon- belief.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 7:20 am to sms151t
Fani Willis
Posted on 1/11/24 at 7:21 am to tarzana
quote:
Fani Willis
You rejoice at clear corruption because OMB. You are an intellectual lightweight.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 7:35 am to Prodigal Son
quote:
Before I go any further, I’d like to point something out. The elephant in the room. If you applied the same level of skepticism to any of these accounts as you do to the Bible- you could not believe any of them. If you applied the same level of skepticism to life in general as you do to the Christian God- you would be paralyzed by fear.
What? Do you think he believes the Sargon story to be literal truth as you do with the Bible stories? This gets to the crux of the matter. Any discussion of discrepancies, historical accuracy, etc., with respect to the Bible offends you. So you lash out like this. No one is telling you that you can’t believe what you want to.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 7:37 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
No one is telling you that you can’t believe what you want to.
Other than the American Left who are doing their damndest to prove you wrong.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 9:19 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
What? Do you think he believes the Sargon story to be literal truth as you do with the Bible stories?
I had the same initial reaction. Is he actually accusing me that I would believe King Sargon floated down the Euphrates in a wicker basket coated in tar?
I have him the benefit of the doubt and didn’t even bring that up on my reply.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 6:07 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
What? Do you think he believes the Sargon story to be literal truth as you do with the Bible stories?
What? No. Of course not. What I’m saying, is that if he applied the same level of skepticism to these results of “expert analysis”, he wouldn’t believe that Sargon even existed- much less that modern historians and archaeologists could accurately date events from the ancient world. For him, anything and everything regarding Christianity is a fabricated myth- yet on blind faith, he wholeheartedly accepts and supports any and all reports that contradict the Bible’s claims.
quote:
Any discussion of discrepancies, historical accuracy, etc., with respect to the Bible offends you. So you lash out like this.
What? Offended? That’s what you think? Far from it, my friend. These discussions concern me. I am concerned for those who would take his words as irrefutable truth- when they clearly are not. He speaks so matter of factly about many things that cannot possibly be proven beyond doubt. Often, he provides little to no evidence for his claims. You think I’m lashing out? What, in particular, gives you that impression? I never got the impression that he thought I was lashing out.
quote:
No one is telling you that you can’t believe what you want to
Explicitly? No. Implicitly? Yes. He, and a few others (yourself included), will often utilize insults and mockery in your disparaging remarks regarding the defense of the Biblical worldview. As if to say “You can believe that if you want- but you’re an idiot for it.” Though I credit SM for the knowledge he possesses, the source links he occasionally provides, and that he has treated me fairly- for the most part. I would say that he , more often than not, responds in kind. I harbor no resentment towards either of you. To the contrary, I am just a beggar who has found some bread- wanting only to share it with others.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 6:12 pm to Henry Jones Jr
quote:
0.5% of the world’s male population is related to Genghis Kahn. So probably him.
Ironic that's about the percent supposedly trans.
Posted on 1/11/24 at 6:40 pm to Squirrelmeister
If I didn't know better, you would sound like a "Non Believer". I can hear the "Big Bang" from here.
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