re: Barna research says 32 million churchgoing Christians are sitting out the election

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I'm sorry, FMC, Christ is the head of Biden, and the next President of the US.

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Jesus is the head of the Church (Col. 1:18), His body, and head over all things for the Church (Eph. 1:22). Biden and the President are part of the "all things". They are also the "kings" and "lords" that Jesus is King and Lord over, just as He is King and Lord over us.

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You are a free-will subject of God. Do his bidding and vote for the lesser of two evils. Or don't, God will decide. In fact, don't do anything of your free will anymore, because it really doesn't matter. You don't matter. Because you have decided to sit on the sideline and do nothing.

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My "sitting out" is a willful act on my part. I'm not sitting out due to apathy or fatalism. I'm sitting out only because I cannot in good conscience vote for someone who causes Christ's name to be blasphemed among the gentiles (unbelievers) because of what he says and does (Rom. 2:24).

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Rev 3:16
KJ21
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth.

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I hope you are not applying that to me. I'm not sitting out because I am lukewarm. My love for Christ compels me to this end due to the conviction I have that Trump does not honor Him.

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Your 'holiness' akin to :
Mat:
“And when you pray, you shall not be like the [b]hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [c]openly.

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I'm sorry you feel this way. This topic was specifically about Christians not voting and I chimed in with what I thought was an inoffensive statement. It garnered a lot of questions and concerns which I've been responding to, but I don't believe I'm being hypocritical, nor am I acting like the Pharisees that pretend to be holy and upright in public while secretly they continued to break the law of God without care. I'm not doing that. I'm responding to questions and arguments that people have because of my position.

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Get off TD. You are not promoting the word of God.

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I'm sorry you feel that way. I have been promoting God's Word consistently for years here. I continue to do it, though I recognize that I am a sinner and a weak messenger. I'm sure I could be better in how I communicate here, but disagreeing with me should not mean that I'm a Pharisee and hypocrite.

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No hes not. I think hes made that pretty clear, time and time again. You will be judged by the choices you make. or refuse to make

Lot chose between Abraham or Sodom
Judas chose between Christ or Zealotry
Christ had to choose sacrifice or temptation
Pharoah had to choose freedom or plagues
Moses had to choose speaking to or striking the rock

If God ultimately controlled all of our choices, then the flood, Sodom, the serpent, etc would have never happened

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I'm sorry you deny the clear biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God. I don't know how or why you would pray or how you have any confidence in anything in this life given that perspective, but I'll refrain from continuing this discussion with you lest you continue to deny the God of the Bible further.

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I don't know how or why you would pray or how you have any confidence in anything in this life given that perspective

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holy shite

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I can't give my endorsement to anyone who doesn't seek Christ's kingdom and seeks to govern for His glory above all else.

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Please accept this from one Christian brother to another.

“Let he among you without sin cast the first stone.”

If you can look into Donald Trump’s heart and know it and pass judgment on him and his motives you’ve achieved a pseudo-god like status.

You are elevating a personally unattainable standard of righteousness that only Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone has met, and met it on your behalf because you could not meet it by your own efforts, nor can you ever meet it by your own efforts.

To be more pointed, Jesus died for your sins so you won’t be judged by the very standards by which you are judging Donald Trump. He owes a debt he cannot pay just like you and I owe. A gospel without mercy is not the gospel.

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Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.

When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’

And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’

So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.

Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

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Does this include the modern day churches where abortion is somehow sactioned by God?

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That's the only ones it includes

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SlowFlowPro

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I'm serious. Christians pray for all sorts of things that rely on man's choices to one degree or another. We even pray for the salvation of others. If God is not sovereign over all things, then why pray for anything that is reliant upon man? How would a Christian have confidence in their own salvation if it is entirely based on their free-will choice? If I can will myself to salvation, I can will myself out of it. I couldn't even pray to God to keep and preserve me, because He would be hamstrung in the matter since it would be up to me.

So as I asked: why would you pray or have confidence in anything in life given the perspective that God is not sovereign over all things?

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I'm sorry you feel that way. I have been promoting God's Word consistently for years here. I continue to do it, though I recognize that I am a sinner and a weak messenger. I'm sure I could be better in how I communicate here, but disagreeing with me should not mean that I'm a Pharisee and hypocrite.

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You're a good guy. I get it.
But if every Christian took your take and didn't vote, we'd get Harris.
You can't think that's smart.
You can't think that God wanted us on the sidelines.
God is here. Because God is you. You are an instrument of his actions. Be that guy. Vote against the evil. Vote for the best there is.

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Please accept this from one Christian brother to another.

“Let he among you without sin cast the first stone.”

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Certainly, I'm open to correction if I need it.

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If you can look into Donald Trump’s heart and know it and pass judgment on him and his motives you’ve achieved a pseudo-god like status.

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I'm not looking into his heart at all or judging his motives as such, but I'm making my statements based on an abundance of fruits (or lack thereof). I've listened to his speeches for the past 8+ years and don't recall hearing him give praise to Jesus Christ. He has given many speeches at faith and family conferences and similar types of faith-based venues and events and mostly says things that would make you think he was a Deist. Even when asked about his faith directly, he sidesteps it, saying things that make me think he is absolutely clueless of the Bible. He says things about not needing forgiveness for anything when asked about his faith. He's entirely secular in how he speaks. For a man who has supposedly been a Christian for most of his life, I would expect the Lord to be sanctifying Him over that time, and I honestly can't tell the difference between Trump and a "Conservative" atheist or agnostic politician that says "God bless America" for the sake of patriotism and pandering.

I do not know is heart, but Jesus said that we can judge a tree by its fruit, and he doesn't exhibit fruit consistent with a saved Christian. I'm not judging his soul, but until I see otherwise, I have to treat him as an unbeliever or an extreme hypocrite when it comes to my voting.

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You are elevating a personally unattainable standard of righteousness that only Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone has met, and met it on your behalf because you could not meet it by your own efforts, nor can you ever meet it by your own efforts.

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I don't think I am. I think I've been clear throughout this lengthy thread that I'm not looking for a perfect person to be President, but only someone who makes a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ and lives a life consistent with that profession. Not perfect, but consistent. That includes repentance for sin and an orientation to honor Christ in his life. If I can listen to dozens of speeches and interviews and never even know you were a Christian, that's a bad sign.

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To be more pointed, Jesus died for your sins so you won’t be judged by the very standards by which you are judging Donald Trump. He owes a debt he cannot pay just like you and I owe. A gospel without mercy is not the gospel.

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I agree that a gospel without mercy is not the gospel. I'm not judging Trump's heart but I'm certainly judging his actions, and his actions do not show that he is regenerate. He may be, I don't know, and he may belong to Christ, but he doesn't act like it.

It's not my place to judge his soul--that belongs to Christ--but I can make a judgement about if I should vote for him and give him my endorsement based on his words and his actions. He's bringing unnecessary reproach to Christ by what he says and does and I don't want to support that.

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Calivinists believe they are pre-ordained. No prayers will change Gods mind, if so

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Prayer isn't meant to change God, but to change us. It's how we dialogue with God: He talks to us through His Word and we talk to Him through prayer.

We pray that if it be God's will, that He bring all the elect to salvation. I don't know who are the elect and I don't care to know, that's for God only, but I pray that if God would be pleased, that He would save this person or that person. I pray that He would save everyone if He desires. Again, not to change His mind, but that He knows what we will pray and desires to grant us our prayers according to His will.

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Thats the whole point of being saved by grace. If you dont seek it (thru your choices) God aint handing it out. Ask Judas. He was one the the 12 chosen, Until HE DECIDED not to be

Or you believe God chose him to go to Hell. Intentionally

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Judas was chosen to be a disciple, but not to be saved, and this was done purposefully to fulfill Christ's mission. The Reformers spoke of the distinction between the visible church and the invisible church. The visible church contains everyone who professes faith in Jesus and is part of the visible community of Christians and their children (Baptists may disagree with this part, which I understand ). The invisible church is the entire number of the elect whom God has saved, past, present, and future. They are also part of the visible church.

We are responsible to respond in faith when God regenerates us (when we are "born again"), and it isn't God who believes in Himself through us; we truly believe. However we are not blank moral slates that can accept Christ without that regenerating work of the Spirit in us. Salvation is God's work in us, not our work in ourselves.

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Zero doubt that if Christians sit home because of Trump's imperfections and enable the Fascist Dems to continue the above, along with war-mongering, open Border/open jails and DEI in general...the Left will shut churches down via removing their Tax Exempt status via DEI non-compliance. Look to Europe as prophetic.

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Atheists like me are voting to protect our border, protect our freedom of religion and speech, protect gun rights, protect from illegal searches and seizures, and fighting against communism and the state’s attack on religion. Can’t say the same for FooLaneCraig. He’s too selfish to actually try to help people. He’s very deluded and sick, unfortunately.

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The Good Lord will judge Trump for sure

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“Good” is meaningless in this context as you most likely believe your god created Trump and knew him before he was born and was born according to God’s perfect plan and that he gave insufficient evidence for Trump to believe he exists and now he’s going to judge Trump and send him to an endless torturous fire for all eternity, even as Trump now is trying to protect the wellbeing of millions and billions of people. Would a “good” person or god do something like that?

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but IMO Foo and Christians who enable a Fascist "fundamental change" will own the results

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Absolutely. And they will be the first to be persecuted by the state. Pure unadulterated stupidity.

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Though I think that even if Trump wins, they will blow it all up.

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Maybe, but we need to think positive and still do our best to affect positive outcomes and wellbeing for our loved ones and all Americans.

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For the record I never took Trump's 'Christianity' as serious when he jumped into politics

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He’s fooling some people, but not me and you. I’m sure he’s most likely atheist or irreligious.