- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Coaching Changes
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Actor Shia LeBeouf converts to Catholicism
Posted on 8/26/22 at 12:57 pm to UGATiger26
Posted on 8/26/22 at 12:57 pm to UGATiger26
quote:The Bible is God's revelation, written down for posterity. The New Testament contains all that which God intended His people to know for salvation and godly living.
Where was Christianity in the Bible before the Bible was compiled?
The supposed Apostolic Tradition was not preserved as claimed by Rome, since certain dogmas like the Marian dogmas weren't even known about early on. I don't know how it can be claimed to be Apostolic Tradition that Mary was conceived without original sin when the early Church didn't believe or teach that (and certainly didn't record it).
1
Posted on 8/26/22 at 12:59 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That’s a shame. I hope he receives the gospel and is saved from his sins.
What does this mean?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 1:04 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:I think it's helpful to note that Martin Luther wasn't antisemitic, believing that the German or European peoples were ethnically superior to the semitic Jews. His disdain for Jews was actually a disdain for religious Jews. He saw their beliefs as blasphemous, rejecting Christ as the son of God, and influencing others with their sinful practices that went against scripture. His views towards Catholics arose from the same place.
The organizations that were in power 700-2000 years ago were all flawed.
Marin Luther believed in the burning of Jew synagogues and expressed violet views toward Jewish people. Is this something you believe in? He also went after the Catholic people. Do you believe in violence toward Jews and Catholics?
In fact, many scholars believe that his antisemitic teaching lead to the overall antisemitic views in Germany and the Nazi Party. For the record I have respect for him, especially his translations, but then again I don't hold historical figures to the same code of conduct as we practice today.
I hope to say, of course you don't and that was something in the past and as a people we have moved beyond this. If you can move on from his violent teachings, why wouldn't that apply the Catholic Church?
I believe that's necessary to mention because there was a lot of violence in those days due to the mixture of the Church with the State and the views that were influenced due to that context.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 1:28 pm to UGATiger26
quote:Thank you for the kind words. I hope you realize that what I'm saying isn't meant to be a personal attack on Catholics, only a condemnation of the teachings of Rome.
Foo, we've had some great dialogues over the years, and I very much respect you and your scriptural + theological knowledge. I will not sling mud at you like some of the other comments in this thread.
quote:I don't believe that Rome teaches that faith doesn't matter. On the contrary, I recognize that Rome teaches that faith is entirely necessary for salvation. My beef is that Rome teaches that faith is necessary but not sufficient. Rome includes our works as a necessary component that merits justification before God. That is what I have a problem with. I believe that faith is the free gift of God and it alone receives the gift of salvation by God's grace. Our works do not merit anything towards our justification or right standing before God.
I am Catholic, which you know, and I agree 100% with your interpretation of the relationship between faith and works. Where exactly is your beef with Catholicism on this issue? You seem to be taking a Catholic teaching from somewhere and twisting its interpretation so as to mean "faith doesn't matter; it only matters that you take X, Y, or Z action and you'll be saved" which is most decidedly not the spirit of Catholic teaching, especially not in the modern era.
quote:I love Lewis, but this quote betrays an ignorance (from him) on the importance of the topic. This isn't some petty disagreement. The heart of the gospel (and salvation) is at stake with this topic.
[C.S. Lewis] once wrote that arguing over faith or works is like arguing which blade of a pair of scissors is more important. Does someone who claims to have faith, yet does nothing to live out the mission and calling of the being in which they claim to have faith, really have true faith?
quote:The question that needs to be answered is what is the "faith" that is dead, in James' view? Is there such thing as a dead, saving faith? I would say "no". Since faith is the gift of God, given by the Spirit, and that same Spirit works in the lives of the believer to sanctify him (compel him, as it were, towards good works), then a saving faith is a living faith.
Clearly, James is claiming that there is such a thing as “dead faith.” Otherwise, he could’ve said, “faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, isn’t faith at all.”
So here’s a big question…does a dead faith get one into Heaven alongside the believers who possess living faiths?
What, then is James talking about, when he said a faith without works is a dead faith? He explains in verse 19: "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!"
He's talking about an intellectual faith or acknowledgement, not a trust. Assent to facts isn't enough to save a person, and such a "faith" does not produce good works because good works are the product of the Spirit's work in us (Gal. 5:22-23). On the contrary, saving faith is an implicit trust in the work of Christ to pay the penalty our sins deserve. This type of faith will produce good works as an evidence because it is brought about by the Spirit at work in us.
quote:I agree that both go together, but the issue isn't the existence of faith and works, but the basis for our justification before God. It sounds like we both do agree that works are an evidence of faith, for our works show that our faith is a living, saving faith. But that isn't just what Rome teaches. Rome teaches that works produce merit towards our justification in combination with our faith. I believe the scriptures teach that we cannot merit our salvation to any degree, but that we merely receive Christ's merit that have purchased our justification through the gift of (true, living, saving) faith.
Regardless, the point that Lewis was making is that faith and works go naturally hand-in-hand like lamb and tuna fish. And to argue that one is more important than the other is a useless endeavor.
The issue is whether or not we contribute to our salvation or if God saves us entirely on His own.
quote:I agree with this perspective entirely and why I hold out hope that there are truly saved individuals who identify with the Catholic church. There are individuals who take a biblical view of their salvation in Christ apart from their works. However, that is contrary to the official teachings of Rome.
This might come as a shock, but as a Catholic, I do not wake up in the morning and nervously think to myself “oh man, I better do enough good works today, or else I won’t go to Heaven.” Rather, the first thing I do is drop to my knees and thank God for the gift of another day and the blessings in my life, ask for forgiveness for my sins, and pray for the strength and guidance to carry out his will in the day ahead. That connection to God is then what inspires me to want go out and do good works, not because I’m such a great and worthy person, but because God has empowered me to do so through the Holy Spirit. That’s why I believe it is so important to “pray always.”
I call anyone "brother" or "sister" who recognizes that the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is that all people sin and fall short of the glory of God and are deserving of God's holy and just wrath for their sin, but who look to Christ's atoning work on the cross alone for the basis of their salvation and right standing before God. Anyone who believes that they must add their own good works to Christ's in order to merit salvation actually takes away from Christ's work, because they believe that He isn't enough. And if Christ isn't enough, then we are all still dead in our sins and lost. We should respond to the gospel by obeying Christ out of a heart of thankfulness, but this obedience doesn't contribute towards our justification. It's this distinction of merit produce by Christ alone or by Christ in conjunction with others that is at the heart of our (Catholics vs. Protestants) disagreements, and that disagreement is primarily based on a difference in authority (the Bible alone or the Church).
Posted on 8/26/22 at 1:35 pm to bleedpg
quote:I agree with you. My concern is not for the sinfulness of humans (everyone sins, not just Catholics. I'll say with Paul that I'm the chief of sinners).
FooManChoo
With all due respect, Catholicism is one of the most misunderstood religions. I know there's a lot of bad clergy in the church but there's a lot more good.
The issue is more doctrinal than anything.
quote:I agree with you. We do agree with a lot. I believe in infant baptism. I believe that our views on what baptism does to children varies greatly from each other, but I know that many Baptists reject infant baptism because they believe it's "Catholic" (rather than biblical). I don't reject something just because Catholicism believes it or practices it.
You would be surprised how much we believe in much of the same things. It's probably some of the few things that we disagree on that has you stumped.
With that said, there is a lot of overlap between Christians and Mormons, but the differences are very, very important, and it becomes the difference between salvation and damnation. I believe that the differences between Catholics and Protestants are similar, in that they are very important and affect the state of salvation. The "faith vs. works" argument isn't petty, as some believe.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 1:48 pm to bleedpg
quote:In a sense, yes. I don't have a problem with doing good works. We're commanded to do good works. But the question is not whether or not we should or shouldn't obey God, but what the basis is for our right standing before God: are we righteous before God because of our works, or Christ's works? I believe that Christ's works alone provide the basis for our justification and righteousness before God. Good works are an evidence of our justification, not a contribution to our justification. That's an extremely important difference.
By speaking up and trying to speak the Gospel you are in a sense trying to do good works.
quote:I believe that this compulsion to good works is not a basis for my righteous standing before God, but it is an evidence of the Spirit's work in me, which is an evidence of my righteous standing before God due to Christ's work on the cross received by faith alone.
You are doing something because I think you are compelled to do so. This is what I think I’ve learned as a Catholic. Had you not done so would you be damned to hell? No but I think there may be regrets.
quote:Yes, Christ commanded us to do things. He also commanded us to be perfect, which is not possible this side of Heaven. A command to obedience does not necessitate an ability to obey.
We as Catholics know the price Christ paid on the cross for our salvation and it’s by his sacrifice we are saved but that’s not it alone. We have to put our faith into action. Didn’t Christ say to go forth and make disciples of all nations? This is He telling us to do something.
With that said, I agree that works are necessary. They aren't necessary in the sense that they contribute anything to our salvation, but that they are an evidence that we are saved. If we think we're saved but have no fruits of the Spirit (good works), then we are deluding ourselves. Rome takes this evidence of our faith and turns it in to a basis for our salvation. I disagree with that.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:01 pm to Stitches
quote:How is that reconciled with Trent?
That's a common misconception, but that is not what the Church teaches. It teaches that through Grace we are saved, and because of our faith and justification in that, good works flow through us. Just like you believe if I'm not mistaken.
“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”
The Reformed (biblical) perspective is that it is faith alone, by itself, that receives Christ's righteous merit and justification (salvation) before God, and that our works contribute nothing towards our standing before God for salvation.
This perspective agrees that works are necessary, but only in the sense that works should prove our faith, not contribute anything in addition to our faith for our justification.
However, if what you say is true, that it is faith alone that saves and not works, then what is the purpose of Purgatory? According to the biblical perspective, justification by faith alone grants us immediate access to eternal life, so that when our bodies die, our souls go directly to Heaven. If we are truly justified by faith and not works, then why does anyone need to go to Purgatory? What else can we do that Christ hasn't already done?
To summarize: I believe we are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:06 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
How are the scriptures "additional works"?
Not a word of it is firsthand.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:10 pm to mtb010
quote:That the church of Rome does not possess the gospel of Jesus Christ when it says that a person must add anything to faith in Christ's work on the cross to be righteous before God. If one does not possess the gospel, he does not possess eternal life.quote:What does this mean?
That’s a shame. I hope he receives the gospel and is saved from his sins.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:15 pm to tigergirl10
quote:
Our teachings are strictly scripture and Biblical.
except transubstantiation... and papal infalliability... and the Assumption of Mary...
need i go on?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:15 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The Catholic Church rejects salvation by faith alone, does she not? If so, she rejects the biblical teaching of salvation.
Where in the bible does it say you should rely only on the bible? You know the book that the Catholic church assembled? While we're at it, have you read the Epistle of James? It's Faith AND Works.
quote:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i
quote:
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:20 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:Forgive me but I still don't understand what you're getting at. I don't understand how the scriptures, not being a firsthand account (not true in all respects) are "additional works". Do you mean that believing them to be the Word of God are additional works?quote:
How are the scriptures "additional works"?
Not a word of it is firsthand.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:22 pm to FooManChoo
Few people agree 100% with each other about Christian doctrine and practices. Even those who supposedly follow a strict/literal interpretation of the Bible disagree amongst themselves as to the interpretations behind The Word.
As Christians, rather than calling out others, how about we support all believers and non-believers alike in their journeys/walks?
As Christians, rather than calling out others, how about we support all believers and non-believers alike in their journeys/walks?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:23 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
As soon as you add additional requirements (works) to Christ's work on the cross
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:25 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Imagine spending an entire day on a college football internet forum in a thread about Shia LeBouf, trying to argue that OG Christianity is not real Christianity. Foo Man needs to read the part of the bible about throwing stones. What a dope
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:28 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
How is that reconciled with Trent?
“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”
I believe that would be referring to the "dead faith" you explained yourself in your reply to me.
quote:
Is there such thing as a dead, saving faith? I would say "no". Since faith is the gift of God, given by the Spirit, and that same Spirit works in the lives of the believer to sanctify him (compel him, as it were, towards good works), then a saving faith is a living faith.
Here's the "cooperation" that Trent was referring to:
quote:
Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
And here's another excerpt from the Catechism's section on Grace (right after Justification):
quote:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:28 pm to pevetohead
Why is this on here? Who is Shia
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:42 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What Rome teaches is that what Christ did was a good start, but we have to provide something else on top of what Christ has done before we can be justified. That isn't the gospel.
This is false, Catholics do works to become more saint like not to be saved . It is to become more Christ like aka Christian.
quote:
It's more that what Catholicism teaches is that Christ's work wasn't enough.
False, if someone is hit by a bus and accepts salvation as he is dying is he saved and going to heaven or not since he cant do anything. The Catholic church would teach that he still has salvation.
The works we do on earth are to prepare our souls for purgatory and haven. I.E. Storing our treasures in Heaven.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:42 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Believe it or not, my complaints arise from a concern for the souls of others, not because I want to be right and want others to be wrong.
You sound just like my wife’s baptist grandmother who tells us we are going to hell because we worship the exact same Jesus differently than she does then claims her intentions are pure.
People like you will sadly mistaken when they see a bunch of Catholics and Hindus beyond the gates of heaven yet you won’t be let in because of your wolf in sheep’s clothing actions in life.
Your statement is a blatant hypocritical cop out. You either love like Jesus did - you know, no matter their religion - or you don’t. No one needs you to correct them to be saved.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 2:46 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The New Testament contains all that which the Council of Nicaea intended their people to know for salvation and godly living.
More accurate
Page 8 of 22
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News