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re: Actor Shia LeBeouf converts to Catholicism
Posted on 8/26/22 at 3:57 pm to Bayoubred
Posted on 8/26/22 at 3:57 pm to Bayoubred
quote:
True church history
Define true history
I’d like to ask this absent of anything anyone has said so far: if Jesus intended on todays’s Bible being the only way to learn how to get to heaven, how does one reconcile that with the fact that the vast majority of people in the world could not read and did not have access to education until about 100 years ago (being very generous)?
Like 99% of everyone who’s ever lived since the dawn of humanity couldn’t read or write, but scripture and self study is the only way to salvation?
Curious.
Also who’s ok with worshipping a god who sends people to hell that have never heard his name or learned of his existence by no fault of their own? Catholic teachings say those who live a good pure life can go to heaven too if they’ve never even heard of Jesus. Curious to know what the defecting sects think.
1
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:01 pm to AubieinNC2009
quote:Prayer is an element of worship. It's not merely a conversation. Do you refer to conversations you have with others as prayers in day-to-day life?
Prayer is a conversation not act of worship, WORSHIP is an act of WORSHIP
quote:We can get into the canon of scripture if you want. The Apocrypha wasn't considered canonical scripture by the early church and even Jerome (who translated the Latin Vulgate) didn't believe it was canonical. He thought it was ecclesiastical or good for teaching but not inspired scripture.
Says the person reading a bible "corrected" by man not God.
quote:Your Catholic context is coming through.
Yes it does and to the 2nd part of this funny you talk about Saints because even the protestant bibles will say the Gospel according to St. Luke, St. Mark, St. Matthew
We believe that the "saints" are Christians, not exalted super Christians with a special title, since the Bible speaks of Christians as "saints" often.
quote:There is literally nothing in the text that signifies a prayer is occurring. That's pure Roman doctrine inserted into the text. The conversation in the parable is presented as a normal conversation, granted that it takes place in the afterlife between two dead people.
It does even if it doesnt follow a set ritual prayer with Dear Lord.
quote:Our souls live on and we are with God, glorifying the trinity for eternity. There is no hint that we are imbued with divine qualities like omniscience or omnipresence to be able to hear the prayers of the living and pass them along to the Father, especially since we are explicitly taught by Jesus to pray to the Father and that no one comes to the Father except through the Son. Since Christians are the very bride of Christ, why should we go through Jesus' mother when He has left His mother and joined Himself to His bride as we are told to do (leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife/husband).
Also way to go trying to say what Jesus is saying here, 2nd what do you think happens when you die, your soul still lives and that soul can pray for others
quote:And yet Purgatory exists in your view.
In fact, the Council of Trent condemned anyone who taught that we can save ourselves or who taught even that God helps us do what we could do for ourselves. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:02 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
salvation by faith alone
also...
quote:
I believe in sola scriptura
SO which is it, sola scriptura, or sola fidei? both cannot be the one-and-only thing.
This post was edited on 8/26/22 at 4:17 pm
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:13 pm to KiwiHead
quote:I agree. Judas professed faith, too, but he is burning in Hell as we speak.
Some of the biggest bastards in history professed to have faith. Henry VIII had faith but was a bastard that killed a wife or two.
Many people will go to Hell thinking that they were saved because of one thing or another. Works don't save us, and even a profession of faith doesn't save us, but only a possession of saving faith in Christ's merits on the cross will receive His merits and grant us eternal life.
quote:As I've said several times, good works an evidence of saving faith, not a contribution to our salvation along side saving faith. That's precisely what James was talking about. A person who claims to have a saving faith but cares not for obedience to Christ does not show evidence that he has been transformed by the Spirit.
Personally, I think faith alone is too easy." I believe in God and my salvation was ensured by his son, Jesus' Supreme sacrifice on the cross...I believe" If your beliefs lead you to being a sonofabitch, cheating your neighbor, being unfaithful to your wife/ husband, committing acts of violence in God or Jesus' name. Are you really saved? Or are you being like a mob boss and merely hedging your bet and hoping that you can ask for forgiveness and absolution on your deathbed as the Reaper comes calling?
I suppose you can since all that would be necessary is to believe.
Also, "faith" isn't easy at all, because it is impossible. We cannot believe without the work of the Spirit acting in us. We are dead in our sins and unable to believe the gospel without the work of God in us first, making us alive and desirous to receive the promises of faith.
quote:Belief in the existence of God is not the same thing as trusting in the saving work of Christ on the cross for you in particular. Satan doesn't believe that Jesus died for him. This goes back to that passage in James about dead faith. James explains what dead faith looks like: mere intellectual assent.
To take it further, Lucifer absolutely believes in God.....and Jesus, correct?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:19 pm to FooManChoo
Yeah, it wasn't just Servetus he was cruel to. Geneva was his little kingdom to terrorize
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:32 pm to hnds2th
quote:That's not true. I certainly talk about Catholic doctrine when it comes up, such as this thread, but I don't make every thread about religion anti-Catholic.
You hijack every thread about religion with anti-Catholic mis-information.
quote:Do you think everyone understands everything they believe?
It’s a circular argument. You insist the Catholic Church teaches works are necessary for salvation. However, many Catholics on this board have stated that is not true.
If salvation is being in the presence of God in Heaven, apart from the punishment of our sins, then explain Purgatory. How must we pay for our sins on earth if Christ already paid for all of our sins on the cross? If faith receives the righteousness of Christ, then what do our works do to merit anything on top of that?
As for the quotes you provide: it's clear that Rome confuses justification and sanctification. Justification is the act of being legally declared righteous before God while sanctification is the progressive mortification and removal of sin from our bodies, being conformed in practice to the righteousness that we have from Christ by faith. One is a legal declaration and one is the active conformity by the Spirit to the image of Christ.
If we have a saving faith in Christ, then we have eternal life today (John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Col. 1:21-22; Titus 3:5-6; Eph. 2:4-5), not some unknown time in the future after we pay off our sins. We have already been justified, not we will be justified at some point in the future (Rom. 3:23-25; 5:1,9; 8:30; 1 Cor. 6:11).
This post was edited on 8/30/22 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Yes, because the only place in scripture where the words "faith alone" appear is in James 2:24, where the author tells us that we are NOT justified by faith alone. It requires serious exogetic interpretation to read that and conclude we are saved by faith alone.
Faith alone is taught in many places. Go read Ephesians 2 and the whole book of Romans, to start.
Just finished Romans today. Paul warns/tells Believers that works without faith is pointless. The belief is if a person is walking in the Light the works will be a natural expression of one’s love for Christ and His teachings. Simply proclaiming Christ as your Savior and performing some level of works that satisfies your definition of what’s enough while still living in willful sin is indeed pointless.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:43 pm to UGATiger26
quote:If the natural man cannot believe in the promises, but must be "born again" by the Spirit, then his salvation belongs entirely to the will of God, not his own will.
I don't see how these two statements are mutually exclusive.
quote:But it's not. We are dead in our sins and must be made alive. A (spiritually) dead man cannot will anything good and he certainly can't accept the good things of God.
And I really don't see how it's possible to get around the logic that faith is a work, in and of itself. It is an act of our God-given free will to choose to believe. The believer must actively choose to assent to God.
Faith is a gift from God, not an act of man.
Think about it in human terms for a second: is there something that you can will yourself to believe to be true that you currently believe to be false? Can you make yourself believe that gravity doesn't exist, for instance?
Likewise, how does an enemy of God submit Himself to God by faith without first being made a son or daughter by adoption through the Spirit?
quote:A saving faith one one granted by the Spirit. That same Spirit continues to work in the life of the Christian to sanctify him/her, and the Spirit produces good works in the believer through sanctification.
If that is not the case, your definition of a living, saving faith cannot be reconciled with what James described as a dead faith, which you said is not saving, but which, apparently, is good enough after all.
A dead faith is one that is mere intellectual assent but lacks the power of the Spirit to work and move in the person. This person has no good works because his faith is not a saving faith, and no works done without belief can be considered "good".
quote:I don't. This is precisely why Erasmus and Luther went back and forth, because the topic of justification and the freedom of the will are extremely important points of discussion with eternal ramifications.
Honestly, at this point I feel like we are clearly debating semantics.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:46 pm to UGATiger26
quote:Saving faith is a faith that trusts in Christ's work on the cross as saving for that person in particular. It is a faith that is led by the Holy Spirit.
Depends on what you mean by "saving faith," which, as we've learned in this thread, is different from non-saving faith.
My point is this: if a person truly trusts in Christ's work on the cross from them, then the Bible says that they are (presently) justified before God, having Christ's righteousness imputed to them. If they have Christ's righteousness, how then can they go to Purgatory to pay for sins when Christ has already paid for them?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:46 pm to tommy2tone1999
quote:It is. I already commented on this.
Which is not biblical in and of itself. Ironic
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:48 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Would you take more than 10 seconds to explain what you mean if you really want me to understand?
Honestly, I don't really care if you understand. I've taken the time in the past to explain things to you and, like this, it always comes down to your belief in something that has no evidence. Always.
This post was edited on 8/26/22 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:51 pm to ShoeBang
quote:The preaching of the gospel that comes from the Bible. It's how God changes hearts and minds, making them able and willing to trust in Christ for salvation. It comes from the preaching of the Word, and the Word is what equips a person to preach the gospel.
I’d like to ask this absent of anything anyone has said so far: if Jesus intended on todays’s Bible being the only way to learn how to get to heaven, how does one reconcile that with the fact that the vast majority of people in the world could not read and did not have access to education until about 100 years ago (being very generous)?
Like 99% of everyone who’s ever lived since the dawn of humanity couldn’t read or write, but scripture and self study is the only way to salvation?
Curious.
I think the bigger question is: if Christianity is the only true religion, wouldn't that exclude the vast, vast majority of all people on earth from salvation? The answer is "yes". Jesus, Himself, said that broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life, and few find it.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and God has been merciful in showing love to some by saving them when they don't deserve it.
quote:Romans 1 teaches that all men are guilty before God, because recognize deep down that He exists and nature proclaims His power. All, therefore, are condemned. All have sinned in Adam, too, as our representative. There is no one who is guiltless.
Also who’s ok with worshipping a god who sends people to hell that have never heard his name or learned of his existence by no fault of their own? Catholic teachings say those who live a good pure life can go to heaven too if they’ve never even heard of Jesus. Curious to know what the defecting sects think.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:57 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
it always comes down to your belief in something that has no evidence.
All due respect, I still haven’t found any example in scripture of mortal dead people being able to hear the prayers of living humans. But that’s a cornerstone of your entire faith practice.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 4:59 pm to tommy2tone1999
quote:Both are true.quote:
salvation by faith alone
also...quote:
I believe in sola scriptura
SO which is it, sola scriptura, or sola fidei? both cannot be the one-and-only thing.
The "five solas" of the Reformation were:
Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)
Sola Gratia (Grace alone)
Sola Fidei (Faith alone)
Solus Christus (Christ alone)
Soli Deo Gloria(God's glory alone)
All of these touch on some particular doctrine.
Sola scriptura means that the Bible alone is the final authority in matters of faith and life (as opposed to the church of Rome, human reasoning, or something else).
Sola gratia means that salvation is by the grace of God alone, and not by the will of man, who does not deserve God's favor.
Sola fidei means that faith alone receives the grace of salvation from God, not the works of man meriting salvation
Solus Christus means that it is Christ alone that merits salvation, and that man cannot earn his own salvation or pay for his sins by adding to what Christ has done.
Soli deo gloria means that all the work of salvation is accomplished by God alone, for His own glory, so that no man can boast or receive glory for his own contributions towards his salvation.
So to summarize, sola scriptura is talking about authority while sola fidei is talking about how Christ's righteousness is received by the Christian. They are not mutually exclusive.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:00 pm to Tuscaloosa
quote:
All due respect, I still haven’t found any example in scripture of mortal dead people being able to hear the prayers of living humans. But that’s a cornerstone of your entire faith practice.
Huh?
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:00 pm to KiwiHead
quote:I think the example of Servetus proves your statement to be false. He didn't have the authority or influence to sway the Council of Geneva on the method of Servetus' execution, but somehow Calvin was a tyrant that ruled Geneva with an iron fist? Not hardly.
Yeah, it wasn't just Servetus he was cruel to. Geneva was his little kingdom to terrorize
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:01 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:Amen
Just finished Romans today. Paul warns/tells Believers that works without faith is pointless. The belief is if a person is walking in the Light the works will be a natural expression of one’s love for Christ and His teachings. Simply proclaiming Christ as your Savior and performing some level of works that satisfies your definition of what’s enough while still living in willful sin is indeed pointless.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:03 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:You cared enough to respond to me (more than once) but not enough to explain what you were saying? Curious.
Honestly, I don't really care if you understand.
quote:No evidence? That's a silly statement.
I've taken the time in the past to explain things to you and, like this, it always comes down to your belief in something that has no evidence. Always.
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:04 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Huh?
Presumably he's talking about asking saints to "hear our prayers"
Posted on 8/26/22 at 5:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You cared enough to respond to me
That doesn't mean anything. You're useful to make the points I want to make, but I don't care about your beliefs.
quote:
No evidence?
None.
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