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re: Thoughts on Diversions and the Coastal Master Plan
Posted on 6/7/16 at 9:44 am to JasonL79
Posted on 6/7/16 at 9:44 am to JasonL79
The main issue you will see with dredging and soil chemistry is that of saline (gulf) sediments for restoration...many plants don't like to grow in salty soil, so you have a hard time restoring fresh marsh, braking marsh, and ridges with gulf borrow. The deposition areas north of Port Fourchon are poster children for this. You can see soil salinities ranging from 9-15 ppt. Also, there have been some initial findings near Bayou DuPont that even coarse/sandy fresh sediment dredged from the MR weathers when exposed to air and light and temporarily leach salts into the soil as it breaks down.
TLDR: we can't just dredge anywhere and place anywhere; sediments are not created equal.
TLDR: we can't just dredge anywhere and place anywhere; sediments are not created equal.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 9:47 am
1
Posted on 6/7/16 at 9:49 am to Barf
quote:
Is it really the states responsibility to educate fisherman on their own fishery?
Yes, it's called an outreach program, and they do it for MANY other topics, I won't list them all, but this one is big enough to have warranted it, if for nothing else than to help with PR and give an impression of transparency.
quote:
now we have to take their feelings into account every time a restoration project is implemented?
To boil it down to "feelings" is a copout. In many cases they have farmed and harvested these same areas for a generation or more and they (the oyster fishermen) consider this a way of life for them, their fathers, and their children. When you threaten their way of life it goes beyond "feelings". Ignoring or choosing not to address this dynamic was a miscalculation on the states part and it's created a predicable ground swell
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:04 am to Dock Holiday
quote:
To boil it down to "feelings" is a copout. In many cases they have farmed and harvested these same areas for a generation or more and they (the oyster fishermen) consider this a way of life for them, their fathers, and their children. When you threaten their way of life it goes beyond "feelings". Ignoring or choosing not to address this dynamic was a miscalculation on the states part and it's created a predicable ground swell
I 100% understand this, but the beds used to be further out. Erosion started and the beds were moved. shite man, my dad was a surveyor who worked in and around the marsh most of his life. 15 years ago there were parts around vermillion bay and Cameron that had disappeared that used to be another mile or more out from when he started surveying out there. It's insane how much land has been lost.
What they have to understand is that there needs to be a compromise of sorts. If nothing is done they won't have a home to go to. Instead, they act like people are trying to steal their lively hood and they won't have any options to keep it going. Which isn't happening, they will just have to move the beds. The oyster business is vital to the state and they will do whatever they can to keep it going. I know it isn't simple, but something needs to be done.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:14 am to Dock Holiday
I think the state is just biding their time on the diversion socioeconomics because they will have to do it in the NEPA process to get permits...why bust your arse fighting angry folks when you will have to do it all over again in the regulatory process?
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:15 am to man in the stadium
Could very well be true.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:15 am to JasonL79
quote:
What is that supposed to mean?
Also, I notice someone is down voting most of our posts.
Private property improvements made with money from the general fund. Also there was no assessment so the property taxes remain the same despite the rebuilding.
To muddy the waters even more the State and corp of engineers is well aware of the potential fallout from such a thing. Especially when you consider a large part of our erosion problem is a direct result of private businesses digging canals on private property. The whole paying for the sins of our fathers is a very real thing.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:19 am to Dock Holiday
quote:
To boil it down to "feelings" is a copout. In many cases they have farmed and harvested these same areas for a generation or more and they (the oyster fishermen) consider this a way of life for them, their fathers, and their children. When you threaten their way of life it goes beyond "feelings". Ignoring or choosing not to address this dynamic was a miscalculation on the states part and it's created a predicable ground swell
bullshite. The oystermen have never fishing further inland than they are right now. As I type this there are huge private oyster leases where there was land as recently as 30 years ago.
We can't have it both ways. We can't have a healthy marsh and keep the salinity levels high enough for oysters to thrive in the areas they are currently thriving. It's impossible.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:28 am to man in the stadium
quote:
The main issue you will see with dredging and soil chemistry is that of saline (gulf) sediments for restoration...many plants don't like to grow in salty soil, so you have a hard time restoring fresh marsh, braking marsh, and ridges with gulf borrow. The deposition areas north of Port Fourchon are poster children for this. You can see soil salinities ranging from 9-15 ppt. Also, there have been some initial findings near Bayou DuPont that even coarse/sandy fresh sediment dredged from the MR weathers when exposed to air and light and temporarily leach salts into the soil as it breaks down.
I've sure there will be some places that are harder to grow plants on dredged soils than others but I'm sure most areas can grow plants if the land is dredged high enough to maintain the growth.
I know their is still plant growth at the end of the Mr. Go and I wouldn't think there is a ton of fresh water there. I'm not completely sure on the salinity in that area though.
My experiences to dredging are limited to south of Venice which most of it still receives some fresh water from the river. Certain areas further out in the gulf with higher-salinity water (southwest pass for example) do have a harder time growing plants and trees.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 10:30 am
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:32 am to Barf
quote:
As I type this there are huge private oyster leases where there was land as recently as 30 years ago.
There are litterally 100's of thousands of leases out there, majority in areas that were land at one time. I can show you hundreds of leased areas that don't hold a single oyster, they simply keep the lease their name and never attempt to farm it.
The most productive and lucrative grounds are generally in the same area as they were 30 years ago. Some have moved inland but not significantly.
To be clear, I'm all for diversions, dredging, ridge building, etc. We need every tool to win the fight. I just think the state, to this point, has dropped the ball on PR/education around sediment diversions.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:32 am to Barf
quote:
Private property improvements made with money from the general fund. Also there was no assessment so the property taxes remain the same despite the rebuilding.
There is still parish, state and federal land mixed throughout the state. Seems like they could start there.
Here's a question, when land is dredged and created in open water (say an island), who takes possession of the land?
I know if they add on to existing private land, the private owner takes possession of the land. I'm not sure on open land.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:34 am to MrBobDobalina
Great post
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:38 am to JasonL79
quote:
There is still parish, state and federal land mixed throughout the state. Seems like they could start there.
Less than 1 million acres of an estimated 5 million. It's also spread out across the entire gulf coast with a significant portion of that state land being leased by the state from a private owner.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:40 am to Dock Holiday
quote:
I just think the state, to this point, has dropped the ball on PR/education around sediment diversions.
And massively so. I've been told that the most important step we could take is to bridge the knowledge gap between the scientific community and the general public, as it was something that the previous generation failed at overwhelmingly.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:42 am to MrBobDobalina
quote:well i agree with everything you said but im nitpicking here. this isnt true. look at the historical maps and and see the growth of the delta out away from LA. Land is being created there because all of the flow is there.
ave channelized the Mississippi rivers flow to the point that we capture almost zero of the available sediment, which is instead deposited off of the coastal shelf.
People dont realize the MS channel has to be dredged almost constantly to keep marine traffic going.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:45 am to MrBobDobalina
quote:
the subject of diversions and the truth is that there really is no way to oppose them if you look at what they can accomplish in relatively short amounts of time
When you talk to someoen that opposes them ask them what them or their family does. If they say they their family has been oyster fisherman for generations, as them where their pawpaw fished and i guarantee you it will not be where they are fishing now. Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:47 am to sloopy
quote:yes one big diversion is about to be in the design stages.
Living out of state so I don't get a lot of info anymore, but are these diversions ever going to happen?
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:52 am to Dock Holiday
quote:it is the other way around. making a diversion mimics the branching river.
Lock through and head east across the river to see where there is some natural river influence on the marsh, mimicking sediment diversions
Posted on 6/7/16 at 10:54 am to MrBobDobalina
quote:
And massively so. I've been told that the most important step we could take is to bridge the knowledge gap between the scientific community and the general public, as it was something that the previous generation failed at overwhelmingly.
But why fight a war that can not be won? What is there to gain from spending a shite ton of money to educate people who don't want to be educated?
Posted on 6/7/16 at 11:01 am to MrBobDobalina
quote:Have you ever tried this? It is one of the most difficult things on a project and sometimes to the point of impossible. You can no teach someone who doesnt want to learn.
the most important step we could take is to bridge the knowledge gap between the scientific community and the general public, as it was something that the previous generation failed at overwhelmingly.
well barf, our heads are in the same place.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 11:03 am
Posted on 6/7/16 at 11:14 am to Dock Holiday
quote:
As a side note. The state made an serious mistake in not factoring in or addressing the socioeconomic impact the diversions would have. They failed to see it or failed to educate those it would affect. They were all about the science of the project and did not seem (on the outside) to take into account the potential change in lifestyle it would have on some. I.e. oyster fisherman
Complete and utter BS.
The State and Feds have been going throug the required NEPA process since late 1980s.
Look up "The Breaux/Johnston act, The Breaux Act, CWPPRA".
EVERYONE knows the socio-economic impacts. It will impact certain coastal communities and their livelihoods. Doing nothing will impact them also.
Look into court awards for oyster men in Plaquemines Parish. These guys are holding everyone else in S. La hostage.
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