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Message
Louisiana shooting association take on constitutional carry
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:15 pm
The LSA’s Position on Constitutional Carry
There has been a wave of permit-less concealed carry laws enacted across the US. They are popularly referred to as “Constitutional Carry Laws.” In the past, there have been constitutional carry bills filed and presented to the Louisiana House Administration of Criminal Justice committee. No representative of the LSA, or even the NRA, attended those hearings, much less supported the bills. With respect to the LSA, this was in part because we are conservative and wanted to see how these laws worked in other states. There are 16 states with constitutional carry laws in effect and bills are pending in several others. After watching how they worked and looking for any problems they might cause, LSA has decided to support HB 686 because constitutional carry in Louisiana is an idea whose time has come. There is a constitutionally-protected right to carry a firearm openly in Louisiana; constitutional carry would allow someone carrying a firearm to put on a coat or wear his shirt untucked.
The Michael Bloomberg supported Moms Demand Action anti-rights group will claim that the sky will fall and blood will run in the streets if constitutional carry passes. We all heard the same thing from similar anti-rights groups when shall issue concealed carry laws were proposed and passed. None of their dire predictions came true. The 16 states that have constitutional carry have experienced no more issues than carry permit states, which is to say very, very few issues.
You may have concerns about training. We at the LSA agree that it is important, and we encourage people to get training. However, we do not believe training should be mandated. If it can be mandated for concealed carry, why not mandate it for open carry or even mandate it for gun ownership? You can see the slippery slope created by taking a position as a gun professional that people need training to have or carry a gun (keep and bear).
Fortunately, we have a track record to look at with respect to whether mandatory training should be required. In addition to the 16 constitutional carry states there are 6 states that require no training to get a permit. Those states do not experience any more issues than we do in Louisiana with our mandatory training. Further, economist John Lott noted that the increase in the number of people carrying guns in constitutional carry states has actually led to an increase in gun owners getting training, not a decrease.
Some have noted that constitutional carry will lead to law enforcement officers being shot. This, in fact, is a Red Herring. Constitutional carry does not allow “everyone” to carry concealed. It only allows law abiding citizens to carry. Law abiding citizens by definition are not a danger to law enforcement officers. Besides, the right to keep and bear arms is a Civil Right that is a limitation on the power of the government (the police). No civil right exists to make the job of the police easier.
The LSA believes that allowing constitutional carry will actually have the effect of more people getting their permit, not less. Carrying under the constitutional carry bill will have its limitations such as a lack of reciprocity, inability to carry within a 1000-foot school zone, and the inability to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (there are special laws that allow each of these things for permit holders). People that become used to carrying a firearm will grow unhappy with these limitations and many will likely obtain permits. In addition, there are other advantages to a permit such as the NICS background check waiver and, if HB 484 passes, the ability to carry a knife without being subject to RS 14:95.
People may think that it is a good idea to require a person to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm, but that is not the standard by which we must judge this bill. Louisiana Constitution Article 1, Section 11 says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and any infringement will be subject to strict scrutiny review. Strict scrutiny requires a compelling governmental interest and a narrowly tailored regulation. That we have a constitutionally-protected right to open carry in Louisiana and have been doing so without problems for many years coupled with the evidence provided by 16 other states’ experiences with constitutional carry clearly show that there is no compelling governmental interest in preventing a law-abiding citizen from carrying his legally owned firearm in a concealed manner without obtaining a permit to do so.
There has been a wave of permit-less concealed carry laws enacted across the US. They are popularly referred to as “Constitutional Carry Laws.” In the past, there have been constitutional carry bills filed and presented to the Louisiana House Administration of Criminal Justice committee. No representative of the LSA, or even the NRA, attended those hearings, much less supported the bills. With respect to the LSA, this was in part because we are conservative and wanted to see how these laws worked in other states. There are 16 states with constitutional carry laws in effect and bills are pending in several others. After watching how they worked and looking for any problems they might cause, LSA has decided to support HB 686 because constitutional carry in Louisiana is an idea whose time has come. There is a constitutionally-protected right to carry a firearm openly in Louisiana; constitutional carry would allow someone carrying a firearm to put on a coat or wear his shirt untucked.
The Michael Bloomberg supported Moms Demand Action anti-rights group will claim that the sky will fall and blood will run in the streets if constitutional carry passes. We all heard the same thing from similar anti-rights groups when shall issue concealed carry laws were proposed and passed. None of their dire predictions came true. The 16 states that have constitutional carry have experienced no more issues than carry permit states, which is to say very, very few issues.
You may have concerns about training. We at the LSA agree that it is important, and we encourage people to get training. However, we do not believe training should be mandated. If it can be mandated for concealed carry, why not mandate it for open carry or even mandate it for gun ownership? You can see the slippery slope created by taking a position as a gun professional that people need training to have or carry a gun (keep and bear).
Fortunately, we have a track record to look at with respect to whether mandatory training should be required. In addition to the 16 constitutional carry states there are 6 states that require no training to get a permit. Those states do not experience any more issues than we do in Louisiana with our mandatory training. Further, economist John Lott noted that the increase in the number of people carrying guns in constitutional carry states has actually led to an increase in gun owners getting training, not a decrease.
Some have noted that constitutional carry will lead to law enforcement officers being shot. This, in fact, is a Red Herring. Constitutional carry does not allow “everyone” to carry concealed. It only allows law abiding citizens to carry. Law abiding citizens by definition are not a danger to law enforcement officers. Besides, the right to keep and bear arms is a Civil Right that is a limitation on the power of the government (the police). No civil right exists to make the job of the police easier.
The LSA believes that allowing constitutional carry will actually have the effect of more people getting their permit, not less. Carrying under the constitutional carry bill will have its limitations such as a lack of reciprocity, inability to carry within a 1000-foot school zone, and the inability to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (there are special laws that allow each of these things for permit holders). People that become used to carrying a firearm will grow unhappy with these limitations and many will likely obtain permits. In addition, there are other advantages to a permit such as the NICS background check waiver and, if HB 484 passes, the ability to carry a knife without being subject to RS 14:95.
People may think that it is a good idea to require a person to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm, but that is not the standard by which we must judge this bill. Louisiana Constitution Article 1, Section 11 says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and any infringement will be subject to strict scrutiny review. Strict scrutiny requires a compelling governmental interest and a narrowly tailored regulation. That we have a constitutionally-protected right to open carry in Louisiana and have been doing so without problems for many years coupled with the evidence provided by 16 other states’ experiences with constitutional carry clearly show that there is no compelling governmental interest in preventing a law-abiding citizen from carrying his legally owned firearm in a concealed manner without obtaining a permit to do so.
This post was edited on 3/11/20 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:41 pm to Pepperidge
There's a snowball's chance in hell that this passes, especially while JBE is in office. Hell, all the LEO organizations will never allow it to happen.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:42 pm to upgrayedd
I think JBE would sign it if it made it to his desk. He's always been pro-police and pro-gun
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:44 pm to mylsuhat
quote:
He's always been pro-police and pro-gun
Those are 2 conflicting parties in this case.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 1:58 pm to Pepperidge
I support this effort, as I believe no person intent on doing harm will go through the process. Current law places an undo burden and expense on law abiding citizens.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 2:31 pm to Pepperidge
quote:
It only allows law abiding citizens to carry.
News flash:
Criminals are already carrying concealed without a license and will continue to do so.
Might as well let law-abiding citizens do the same for their own protection.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 2:37 pm to Pepperidge
The only reason I have a glimmer of hope on this is that we finally rolled back that ridiculous prohibition on "switchblades."
But, LSP makes a lot of money doing CCW applications, so I doubt this goes anywhere without the endorsement they are unlikely to give it.
But, LSP makes a lot of money doing CCW applications, so I doubt this goes anywhere without the endorsement they are unlikely to give it.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 2:41 pm to Ash Williams
quote:i let my CHP lapse....... i still carry.
News flash:
Criminals are already carrying concealed without a license and will continue to do so.
Might as well let law-abiding citizens do the same for their own protection.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 2:55 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
rolled back that ridiculous prohibition on "switchblades."
woah, not sure how I missed this.
without derailing the thread too much could you explain?
Posted on 3/11/20 at 3:00 pm to tiddlesmcdiddles
quote:
woah, not sure how I missed this.
without derailing the thread too much could you explain?
Half of the popular EDC knives we all love are assisted open. My Kershaw Speedsafe says hello.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 3:01 pm to tiddlesmcdiddles
quote:
without derailing the thread too much could you explain?
Well, in the 1950s, Hollywood produced a film called, "The Blackboard Jungle." It demonized switchblades and they got tons of pearl-clutching legislatures across the United States to ban "switchblades" as a juvenile crime control measure. If that didn't convince them, they hit them again with West Side Story a few years later.
Anyway, Louisiana is one of those and took it so far as to equate a switchblade with carrying a concealed firearm (felonious, in other words). Even California, not known for restraint, allowed spring loaded knives with very short blades (under 2" IIRC), while they were prohibitively banned in Louisiana under most/all circumstances.
That finally changed a couple of years back. I would still be hesitant because carrying concealed on your person (like you would a pocket knife) is still prohibited/regulated, but now at least mere possession of such a knife you might receive as a gift or issued to you in the military won't land you with a felony charge, per se.
I actually thought we would never be able to roll back such nonsensical legislation.
Posted on 3/11/20 at 3:21 pm to Ace Midnight
Just looked it up.
"The intentional concealment on one person's person of any switchblade knife, spring knife, or other knife or similar instrument having a blade which may be automatically unfolded or extended from a handle by the manipulation of a button, switch latch, or similar contrivance located on the handle."
the language seems a little ambiguous doesn't it?
I may or may not have knives that fall within the walls of those terms. was always just told "you can own them, just can't carry them"
so if its visibly carried on one's person is that ok?
Sorry OP for the dereailment
"The intentional concealment on one person's person of any switchblade knife, spring knife, or other knife or similar instrument having a blade which may be automatically unfolded or extended from a handle by the manipulation of a button, switch latch, or similar contrivance located on the handle."
the language seems a little ambiguous doesn't it?
I may or may not have knives that fall within the walls of those terms. was always just told "you can own them, just can't carry them"
so if its visibly carried on one's person is that ok?
Sorry OP for the dereailment
Posted on 3/12/20 at 9:49 am to tiddlesmcdiddles
quote:
so if its visibly carried on one's person is that ok?
I would not trust my liberty to the subjective interpretation of a vague statute by law enforcement officers or prosecutors.
quote:
the language seems a little ambiguous doesn't it? I may or may not have knives that fall within the walls of those terms. was always just told "you can own them, just can't carry them"
Yeah, I don't think that was actually true until a couple of years ago. I had to sign a bunch of paperwork with Benchmade certifying I was eligible (via military service) to own such knives, even though I never pulled the trigger (pardon the pun) on buying one.
I would do so now, but I doubt I would carry it, so it would be a novelty.
And I think traditional "assisted" opening, Kershaw-style or Gerber-style spring assist that you have to move the blade to start would be exempt. Again, I think (YMMV) the statute was narrowly interpreted against the classic, fully automatic (single- or double-action), push a button/switch and the knife opens without any further user operation required.
SOG Arc-lock/Benchmade manual Axis type knives seemed to avoid classification as well (as they should), because the wrist flip was additional user action.
Posted on 3/12/20 at 7:25 pm to Ace Midnight
the lone down vote had to have been the anti 2A "dawg23"
Posted on 3/12/20 at 9:09 pm to Pepperidge
The statement in the OP is the angle I’ve always taken with Constitutional Carry. I’ll even quote my post from a few years ago:
quote:
1. If the issue is that no regulated training will lead to an increase in firearm accidents, why have we not seen a rise in accidental firearm incidents in states that have constitutional carry? My guess would be that responsible people who choose to carry know the limitations of their own abilities and will not carry a loaded handgun on their person without the utmost confidence. And if a person makes a mistake or does something to harm his or her self, the person must live with these consequences. It's not the job of the government to predict how this individual could hurt his or her self
quote:
3. If constitutional carry MAY lead criminals to carry concealed firearms, which is already illegal as previously mentioned, then why haven't crime rates sky-rocketed in constitutional carry states? There has been no significant change in crime statistics in states that have permitless carry.
This post was edited on 3/12/20 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 3/13/20 at 10:01 am to Pepperidge
quote:Glad you're on top of this.
the lone down vote had to have been the anti 2A "dawg23"
I had lunch with the head of LSA last week and discussed this (and other proposed gun bills). I almost started a thread on this topic then, to announce the LSA position, but figured there would be too many adolescent comments.
Posted on 3/13/20 at 3:19 pm to dawg23
quote:
but figured there would be too many adolescent comments.
Yours is the only one in the thread so far.
Posted on 3/13/20 at 3:39 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
LSP makes a lot of money doing CCW applications
In the grand scheme, they really don't. Projections for fiscal year 2020 are only $2.4 million, or 0.5% of their total revenue. Collections peaked just before the 2016 presidential election. That year was about $4.6 million if I remember correctly.
Posted on 3/14/20 at 4:19 am to tiddlesmcdiddles
quote:
I may or may not have knives that fall within the walls of those terms. was always just told "you can own them, just can't carry them"
so if its visibly carried on one's person is that ok?
Depends on what you define as concealed. Is carrying it with the pocket clip to where it’s clearly visible concealing it?
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