re: I'm getting a new CC pistol...

Man, this escalated quickly! NewtonD, 6 inches.

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OK dawg23, we totally get it. You're a defensive handgun training expert, probably with all the certificates. You probably have forgotten more about handgun training that most of us will ever know. Feel better?

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I haven't felt bad at any point during this "discussion."

Carry whatever you want.

Get (or avoid) whatever training you want.

Didn't say anyone was stupid -- did say a couple are misinformed and//or uninformed.

Assume whatever you want to assume, and post whatever opinions you care to post, whatever the source.

But don't get all offended if someone points out flaws. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize.

Have a safe, happy new year.

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I'm a (not so young anymore) professional who also wears business slacks or khaki shorts. I cc all the time in such clothes w/ a Kahr CW45 or a 1911 Commander in 45 ACP. Using the right holster and belt, I don't find it to be a problem. For the person carrying concealed who wears the above closhes, there are more options that pocket carry w/ a 380 or don't carry a gun concealed; w/ the right clothes, holster and belt, one can still carry a larger gun. Having said that, I also have a Kel-Tec P3-AT. But, I only carry it when circumstances prevent me from carrying a larger gun.

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I understand where he is coming from, though I generally agree with this.

I can't tell you how often I've gone looking for advice on how to CC in the professional world, only to have people tell me to try cargo pants or a fanny pack. In the end, there isn't a magic solution. The best general advice is getting the right size firearm, and the holster and belt that works for you.

Another factor overlooked frequently in these discussions is location. Politics ignored, dressing as an attorney in San Francisco or NYC or even Atlanta is different from dressing as an attorney in a small or medium sized town (or a suburb). For a lot of folks, carrying a 1911 while wearing a slim fitting, no pleat suit is just going to be too cumbersome. Moreover, generally when carrying a larger weapon exposure comes into play more, and the problems are often greater when someone gets exposed in their corporate HQ, as opposed to a small field office.

I originally tried a 229, a subcompact XD, and a sub Glock before getting frustrated a returning to an LCP. I eventually decided I could at least make a pocket carry Kahr work (not p380), and for the most part, it has. But I went through multiple carry guns and a ton of IWB and pocket holsters to get there.

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I've read lots of references in this thread suggesting that the stopping power of the 380 ACP apporximates that of the 9mm

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I missed that. I said a .380 provides adequate stopping power within the quarters of a defense situation. I never implied it has the power of a 9mm...I did say if someone is tweaked enough to run through a few .380 rounds then a 9mm probably isn't stopping them either

To further expound on that, if I were to reccomend a comfortable, reliable CC pistol right now it would be the P938. I still stand by my stance however that a .380 is a fatal handgun that has saved a lot of lives

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I wear a Miami Classic II

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That is no longer concealed if you take your jacket off.

Why not any variety of small 9s in the pocket? I can give you a pretty decent list of pocket holsters if you come to that.

The only obvious other answers are belly band/smart carry of some variety, or tucked IWB with as much as you can carry.

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Pocket 9s can only fit in specific pockets. My Kahr will only fit in certain deep pockets of mine.

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For me, I've found there isn't a ton of difference. The only thing I can do with an LCP I can't do with a PM9 is easy rear pocket carry. I wear dress pants every day, and I have no issues with the PM9 in a front pocket. I have a set up that allows me to take it out of my pocket when in my office and keep it at hand, but I don't think it'd be very troublesome to keep it in my pocket all day.

Sometimes I'll feel like it prints too badly in a certain pair of pants, but when I check it in the mirror, it isn't very noticeable, which means nobody in the real world will notice.

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I do sincerely want to hear your opinion on what can someone carry if they are in a white collar job situation where their clothing will not allow carrying something large.

Recommend me a gun and holster that, in your opinion, that will get the job done and allow me to be (Comfortable & Concealed).

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1. First of all, I'll quote what Clint Smith told my class at Thunder Ranch. Take it for what it might be worth:
"Carrying a handgun isn't supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting."

2. I carry a a G19 (18 rounds) in a Comp-Tac paddle (OWB) holster 365 days per year, every minute I'm outside my home (unless I'm in a NPE). I have carried this same gun (or a G23) in the same holster for 15 years.

Clothing ranges from dress slacks//dress shirt//coat & tie --- to same outfit minus the coat --- to slacks, shirt & windbreaker//coat (fall, winter & spring) -- to slacks and "camp shirt" or Underarmour polo shirt (summer).

But keep in mind that I don't buy my polo//camp shirts super snug. I don't buy my suits or blazers super snug -- I tell the tailor I plan to CCW in that coat.

3. Your solution may not be the same as mine. And it doesn't have to be. It does have a LOT to do with lifestyle (do you drive a car six hours/day?, do you sit at a desk eight hours/day?, do you run 5 miles very morning before work?, etc. -- all of these and more can and should affect your holster//gun choice.

If you drive six hours per day, and wear tight slacks or Levis, and wear a seat belt --- it's highly unlikely you'll be able to perform the "quickdraw" that everyone assumes they'll be able to make if a carjacker picks you as his next victim. But if you pump gas eight hours per day, having your hand in your pocket is easy, and pocket carry may be your best option.

But clothing styles really shouldn't drive the decision. (Because most of us can make slight modifications to our attire and still be presentable, with a concealed weapon.)

4. A person's ability to conceal a "mid-sized" handgun in an OWB holster will depend a lot on body shape. The more "rotund" folks will usually have more trouble than the thinner (OK, skinny) folks. So some folks may need an IWB holster.

But you have to start with a good holster that keeps the gun snug against your body, and a good gunbelt (like those sold by Wilderness, or even better, those sold by The Beltman).

5. Keep in mind that the general public is not very observant. So even if it might print a little bit through your shirt, that's not usually a big deal.

In my CCW classes, I always wear my G19 (unloaded in the classroom) in my usual Comp-Tac paddle holster. Usually around 3:00 p.m. I show the class the gun & holster, and ask for a show of hands if they had already noticed it. One woman claimed to have noticed it in a class last year -- she's the only one. Even after I've shown everyone where I have the holster, nobody is able to honestly tell me they can see it.

6. The only times I wear a mouse gun, in a pocket holster, is (maybe once a year) if I have an appointment with a doctor I don't know, and expect to be asked to remove either my pants or my shirt. If I'm concerned about freaking out the doc or a nurse, I sometimes (about once per year) make the concession of walking into that appt. with an M&P Shield in a pocket holster.

7. Some people who haven't availed themselves of formal training might think some of this is paranoid. Again quoting Clint Smith --- "Why would I be paranoid. I'm the one with a gun."

8. The often-asked question in my classes is --- "What about when I have to remove my suit coat or blazer, and am left with a dress shirt & tie. I'd pretty much have to show you how easily that can be done. But take my word for it when I say that one of my secretaries, who had worked for me for 12 years before taking my class, never knew I was carrying a Glock 19//23 around the office until she saw (in class) what I was doing.

9. None of this is rocket surgery. All of this does take a commitment to carrying and making accommodations to do so. Or, conversely, some just decide it's too much trouble (which is what most people decide). Heck, most people don't even carry regularly).

10. Lots of (I hate to keep saying this) "untrained" folks don't really understand the difference between shooting a "medium//large" frame gun, and shooting a tiny gun (irrespective of caliber). They seem to think "shooting well" means shooting small groups at a slow rate of fire. I've never taken a class where this was the standard.

Shooting one shot every 5-6 seconds and getting tiny groups is what Yeager calls "masturbatory marksmanship." Shooting 5-6 shots per second, while getting fist size groups, is what most schools consider a reasonable goal -- and VERY few people are gonna do that with a tiny gun.

I'm not saying that anyone//everyone will spend the time to become the next Jerry Miculek. I'm sure I won't. But assuming you spend the same amount of training & practice with each of two guns, you'll shoot that "medium" sized gun a LOT better than the mouse gun ..... plus the former will hold a lot more BB's.

11. For those who don't want to commit to carrying a "full size" or "mid-size" Glock or M&P or H-K, I think the M&P Shield and the Kahr CW9 (or P9) are very good "in between" choices (in between the "full size" and the "mouse guns)." It's also easy to toss a spare mag for the Shield or Kahr in another pocket since they take up very little room.

12. I've seen the comments about "20 thugs" and other similar stuff. Tom Givens will tell you that he's never interviewed a cop or private citizen who, after a gunfight, wished he'd had less ammo or a smaller gun.

Keep in mind that the average hit rate for cops is 21% -- meaning they miss with 4 out of 5 shots. This is from the annual FBI Uniform Crime Report and the numbers have ranged from 19-21% for the past 10 years. If anyone thinks he's better trained than the average cop (Federal agent, state trooper or local deputy), I suppose he might perform better. But under stress we'll all do worse than our worst day at the practice range.

SO I choose to carry a gun that I can shoot better than a small gun. And I choose to carry a gun in a caliber that at least meets the standard of a service caliber weapon.

.380's are lethal. So are .22LR's. So are pellet rifles (if you get a perfect hit). But I know my skills are gonna degrade during a lethal encounter (just like everybody else's will). So thre's a limit on how much more I want to handicap myself with a small caliber.

And it's just not that hard to conceal a "mid-sized" handgun.

Sorry for being long-winded (again). One of these days I'll learn to ignore these threads -- I think it's probably a 12 step program.