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Diesel baws…F250 Fuel pump - CP4 edition
Posted on 11/22/22 at 7:57 am
Posted on 11/22/22 at 7:57 am
Anyone had issues with this? Talked to a guy yesterday who was a Ford mechanic in TX and he said this was a huge problem with 6.7L diesels. He said between 150k-200k is where the problem starts and recommended I change the fuel pump out now to prevent having to change the whole fuel system when the pump fails which is around $10k. Any truth to this?
Posted on 11/22/22 at 8:14 am to sonoma8
Some, from the little bit I've looked into it they recommend being pretty religious on your fuel filter changes and draining your water trap(every 10k miles) on the 6.7 for this reason. Even still it sounds like the filtration isn't the best, moisture in the fuel causes corrosion in the fuel pump, then little chunks of metal make their way through the fuel system and eventually trash the injectors resulting in the whole fuel system needing to be changed.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 8:33 am to YOURADHERE
quote:
filtration isn't the best
It was improved greatly in 2019.
I dont have any of Fords reliability data to look through and nor does OP's friend, so these discussions are largely pointless regarding failure rates.
Trucks which have been treated well, OEM fuel filters changed religiously, water separators drained religiously, decent fuel used, etc are likely to live a very long time. Trucks running shite fuel, never changing filters, using junk filters, ignoring WIF lights WILL fail early. The pump isn't going to survive trash and water going through it.
Personally if I had one, I would preemptively change the CP4 pump whenever I did the injectors, probably around 450k or so with the way I use Trucks.
I personally would not concern myself too much with it, knowing that I would be doing a very good job of staying on top of filter changes and water separator changes. I almost bought one in 2019.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 8:47 am to sonoma8
I'm at 164k on my '12 6.7. No problems yet. What's the cost on a fuel pump change?
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:04 am to Chad504boy
I believe the pump itself is about $1500 plus install cost. The big cost comes in when the entire fuel system needs replacing due to contamination, you're looking at around $10k.
There's a company that makes a disaster prevention kit for about $400 that's supposed to stop contaminants if the pump goes, so you only have to replace the pump, not the full system. Some people also swear that your insurance company would cover the cost of the full fuel system replacement but I'm not really willing to bank on my insurance company not leaving me high and dry on that one so I've been considering just getting the prevention kit for safe measures.
There's a company that makes a disaster prevention kit for about $400 that's supposed to stop contaminants if the pump goes, so you only have to replace the pump, not the full system. Some people also swear that your insurance company would cover the cost of the full fuel system replacement but I'm not really willing to bank on my insurance company not leaving me high and dry on that one so I've been considering just getting the prevention kit for safe measures.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:08 am to YOURADHERE
quote:
Some people also swear that your insurance company would cover the cost of the full fuel system replacement but I'm not really willing to bank on my insurance company not leaving me high and dry on that one so I've been considering just getting the prevention kit for safe measures.
why would/should an insurance company cover this?
eta: instead of a prevention kit when you're alredy high mileage, why not just go with a fuel pump change and be set for probably the remainder of your time w truck? You still will need a new pump with prevention kit?
This post was edited on 11/22/22 at 9:10 am
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:12 am to Chad504boy
No idea, I've read where State Farm will cover it if you claim contaminated fuel.
I'm not really willing to find out. I can spend $400 now and maybe have to replace a $1500 pump if it ever fails(knock on wood), or I can hope my insurance covers it, which seems not super likely, and have to fork out $10k.
ETA: If you're replacing the pump there's still no guarantee you don't buy bad fuel. The new pump will still be vulnerable like the old one, seems people that are replacing the pump/whole fuel system are still putting the prevention kit as an added safety measure.
I'm not really willing to find out. I can spend $400 now and maybe have to replace a $1500 pump if it ever fails(knock on wood), or I can hope my insurance covers it, which seems not super likely, and have to fork out $10k.
ETA: If you're replacing the pump there's still no guarantee you don't buy bad fuel. The new pump will still be vulnerable like the old one, seems people that are replacing the pump/whole fuel system are still putting the prevention kit as an added safety measure.
This post was edited on 11/22/22 at 9:15 am
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:21 am to sonoma8
Well, it's true that if the pump goes, that can approach 10K to repair.
As for it being very common between 150K - 200K, I don't think you'll find a lot of evidence to support that.
Water (or DEF) in the fuel is the most common culprit and that can happen at any mileage or with a newly replaced pump.
Absent fuel contamination, I doubt there's significant "normal" wear on a pump in that mileage range to cause a catastrophic failure so you can change it preemptively to feel a little better but I don't believe it dramatically reduces your chances of total failure.
Acknowledging that they can and do fail regardless of age, there are a couple of options to prevent damaging the rest of the fuel system. There are "Disaster Prevention" kits that re-route fuel flow to save the injectors, etc. and Exergy makes an MPROP metering valve that supposedly helps prevent the major damage as well.
Based on my research, I'd probably do the MPROP over the DPK. Much simpler install. The MPROP itself is <$300 or you can get a whole pump with the MPROP on it for ~$1200. I only have 85K on my 2017 so I haven't done anything with it yet. Will probably do the MPROP early next year once I get some other projects out of the way...
As for it being very common between 150K - 200K, I don't think you'll find a lot of evidence to support that.
Water (or DEF) in the fuel is the most common culprit and that can happen at any mileage or with a newly replaced pump.
Absent fuel contamination, I doubt there's significant "normal" wear on a pump in that mileage range to cause a catastrophic failure so you can change it preemptively to feel a little better but I don't believe it dramatically reduces your chances of total failure.
Acknowledging that they can and do fail regardless of age, there are a couple of options to prevent damaging the rest of the fuel system. There are "Disaster Prevention" kits that re-route fuel flow to save the injectors, etc. and Exergy makes an MPROP metering valve that supposedly helps prevent the major damage as well.
Based on my research, I'd probably do the MPROP over the DPK. Much simpler install. The MPROP itself is <$300 or you can get a whole pump with the MPROP on it for ~$1200. I only have 85K on my 2017 so I haven't done anything with it yet. Will probably do the MPROP early next year once I get some other projects out of the way...
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:21 am to YOURADHERE
quote:
ETA: If you're replacing the pump there's still no guarantee you don't buy bad fuel. The new pump will still be vulnerable like the old one, seems people that are replacing the pump/whole fuel system are still putting the prevention kit as an added safety measure.
thanks for the info.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:23 am to sonoma8
It's an F-250...... When are we gonna get smarter than this. Everything on them is twice the price and problem. Somehow we still buying and defending them. 90% of us only pull something once a month if that above f-150 payload capability.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:29 am to clschwartz
quote:
There are "Disaster Prevention" kits
I have a hard time believing that actually works.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:32 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Yeah, I get the concept of the DPKs, but I'm not overly sold on the application of it.
The Exergy MPROP is more of a "detect the problem and shut it down early" approach. Plus they are cheaper and easier to install.
"Due to their design of the CP4 they are sensitive to fuel contamination. The ultra-tight tolerances can cause cavitation and eroding of the pump and plunger surfaces. The factory Magnetic Proportional Valve (MPROP)/Fuel Control Actuator (FCA)/Inlet Metering Valve has a course 80 micron single layer screen that will allow metal debris past it in the case of a pump failure and will typically take out the entire fuels system when it does fail.
The Exergy patent-pending MPROP has a two layer 25 micron screen that will prevent metal debris larger than 25 micron from entering the rest of the fuel system, most commonly causing pump failure. With this upgraded pump, the truck will shut off before a whole system failure would occur. These MPROP's will not affect the output of the pumps unless an issue arises causing debris to build up."
The Exergy MPROP is more of a "detect the problem and shut it down early" approach. Plus they are cheaper and easier to install.
"Due to their design of the CP4 they are sensitive to fuel contamination. The ultra-tight tolerances can cause cavitation and eroding of the pump and plunger surfaces. The factory Magnetic Proportional Valve (MPROP)/Fuel Control Actuator (FCA)/Inlet Metering Valve has a course 80 micron single layer screen that will allow metal debris past it in the case of a pump failure and will typically take out the entire fuels system when it does fail.
The Exergy patent-pending MPROP has a two layer 25 micron screen that will prevent metal debris larger than 25 micron from entering the rest of the fuel system, most commonly causing pump failure. With this upgraded pump, the truck will shut off before a whole system failure would occur. These MPROP's will not affect the output of the pumps unless an issue arises causing debris to build up."
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:39 am to clschwartz
Good info here, will have to look into this MPROP. My first thought was just have a new fuel pump installed but apparently that will not be enough due to contaminants in the fuel.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:42 am to sonoma8
Bring dat to the house baw. I’ll get ya tuned up. At cost.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:48 am to clschwartz
quote:
not overly sold on the application of it
There's no way they can actually work. They "work" by re-routing return fuel straight to the tank. It hinges on the premise that no debris is generated between the bore and plunger during a failure event, and that the dinky return filter captures all the debris before hitting the tank. This also assumes that the failure is not a result of corrosion in the system and if you ask Ford, a wholeeeeeeeeeee lot of these failures show corrosion in the rail and debris in the injector, most likely from DEF in the fuel or very poor fuel quality.
So, if you only had a plunger roller failure, and the filter actually caught all the debris, and no debris was generated on the pressure side of the pump AT ALL, than you would have saved yourself a little money. You'd be replacing the pump, some plumbing, and the filter. You would still need to inspect the full system to verify that it actually worked and that expense is still going to be very high. The best case is you save yourself injector and fuel rail replacement, and that will only occur if there's zero debris present on the high pressure side of the system.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 9:55 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
You've been further down the DPK rabbit hole than me. I found the MPROP when I first started looking at the DPKs and it seemed like the more practical and reliable approach so I just wrote off the DPKs as an option for me.
As for replacing the whole pump prophylactically, I'm not inclined to do that @ 85K but if I was sitting @ 185K, I'd probably do it.
I'm also hopeful that if it ever happened to me, it would be an insurance claim due to contaminated fuel but even if I'm not on the hook for the money, I just don't want do deal with the pain in the arse of that large of a repair so $300 and an hour of my time is my current plan of attack...
As for replacing the whole pump prophylactically, I'm not inclined to do that @ 85K but if I was sitting @ 185K, I'd probably do it.
I'm also hopeful that if it ever happened to me, it would be an insurance claim due to contaminated fuel but even if I'm not on the hook for the money, I just don't want do deal with the pain in the arse of that large of a repair so $300 and an hour of my time is my current plan of attack...
Posted on 11/22/22 at 10:39 am to clschwartz
I'm not familiar with that system. It look like a replacement, much finer mesh strainer on the metering valve inlet? If so , I don't see how that would work either. If there is debris piling up right there, the pump will just blow the screen out and all you've accomplished is pump some extra trash through the rail.
I'm not intimately familiar with the Ford CP4 pump. I'm just firmly in the "change your filters and don't put DEF in the fuel" camp of CP4 pump longevity.
I'm not intimately familiar with the Ford CP4 pump. I'm just firmly in the "change your filters and don't put DEF in the fuel" camp of CP4 pump longevity.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 10:54 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Allegedly it's configured to shut down fuel flow all together when the 25 micron screen catches something so if it's working properly, it should not blow out the screen.
Stock screen will allow particles up to 80 microns through so the damage is already done at that point. Per the marketing materials...
And I did some more digging, it's more like a 2-3 hour install but still less mickey mouse than the DPKs which at best are going to return a bunch of crap to the tank and at worst allow up to 80 micron particles to go to the rails/injectors. If working as intended, the MPROP would just shut you down all together and that's the sign that you need to replace the pump entirely but you shouldn't have to mess with any other part of the fuel system.
Stock screen will allow particles up to 80 microns through so the damage is already done at that point. Per the marketing materials...
And I did some more digging, it's more like a 2-3 hour install but still less mickey mouse than the DPKs which at best are going to return a bunch of crap to the tank and at worst allow up to 80 micron particles to go to the rails/injectors. If working as intended, the MPROP would just shut you down all together and that's the sign that you need to replace the pump entirely but you shouldn't have to mess with any other part of the fuel system.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 11:41 am to clschwartz
This is what I did on mine. Several of us have 120K+ mile 6.7's with the CP4 and haven't had an issue caused by the pump itself, although our local shop says they have seen it a time or two. The only one I was involved with was bad fuel, and the station covered it. That being said I plan to replace my pump at the 100K mark, more so to make myself feel better. Just something that goes along with racking up miles on the newer diesels I suppose.
Posted on 11/22/22 at 2:36 pm to clschwartz
I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it and I'm not familiar with this particular gizmo at all beyond what I've read in your posts, so don't put any stock in this. I'm just thinking out loud.
Even at 25 microns, it's going to trash stuff. Stage 2 fuel filters are 2-3 micron at very high efficiencies. Any debris originating after the stage 2 filters is going to end up in the rail and injectors. You might be able to get away without cleaning/replacing that stuff after a failure but that's just luck and borrowed time.
I think the screen would blow out because it's between the pump outlet and the metering valve, meaning it's at full pump pressure. Blocking that off is deadheading at 30,000 psi pump and SOMETHING is going to break. Maybe it has an internal bypass to prevent that or something?
Even at 25 microns, it's going to trash stuff. Stage 2 fuel filters are 2-3 micron at very high efficiencies. Any debris originating after the stage 2 filters is going to end up in the rail and injectors. You might be able to get away without cleaning/replacing that stuff after a failure but that's just luck and borrowed time.
I think the screen would blow out because it's between the pump outlet and the metering valve, meaning it's at full pump pressure. Blocking that off is deadheading at 30,000 psi pump and SOMETHING is going to break. Maybe it has an internal bypass to prevent that or something?
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