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re: Why don't we hear more about the Russians helping to end WWII in the Pacific?
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:05 pm to TutHillTiger
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:05 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:
We agreed to a lot of concussions for the Russians
I chuckled.
0
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:05 pm to therick711
quote:
Ok, explain why Harry rebuffed Churchill after the "iron curtain" speech, apologized to Joe, and offered Joe the service of the USS Missouri if he wanted to come to the U.S. to offer a rebuttal speech.
Politics. Truman approved of the speech in advance, welcomed Churchill to come make it in a nice college "in his home state" (I've actually spent time on Westminster's campus, by the way) - and was taken aback by the reaction of some of the pro-Soviet U.S. press and Stalin himself. I think he was just outwardly trying to be an honest broker - there was always suspicion on the part of the Soviets against the Anglo-American alliance.
At this point (early 1946), Truman was trying to have it both ways. He figured out by the time of the Berlin crisis that appeasement was out of the question and that Stalin required a firm hand.
This does not mean that the end of the summer 1945 he wasn't trying to appear strong - he was filling the shoes of FDR for Pete's sake. But Truman was more reflective than his public persona suggests. I'm not a Truman apologist (although I am an admirer) - he made a lot of mistakes, but a good number are forgivable under the circumstances. He misunderstood the Soviet threat - but, again, it wasn't clear in 1945 and 1946 as it would be when they went nuclear and began a massive ICBM program.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:10 pm to bencoleman
quote:
Russia would never have been able to prosecute the war without shipments of raw materials from the US. We would've kicked their arse
Plus, Soviet Union would have exposed to strategic bombing. All those factories operating untouch would have stopped, grinding much of heavy weapon and aircraft production. Not to mention the destruction of the transportation system i.e. Railways.
Oh yea, bunch Ukraine and other ethnic groups would have turned on the Soviets.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:11 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Politics. Truman approved of the speech in advance, welcomed Churchill to come make it in a nice college "in his home state" (I've actually spent time on Westminster's campus, by the way) - and was taken aback by the reaction of some of the pro-Soviet U.S. press and Stalin himself. I think he was just outwardly trying to be an honest broker - there was always suspicion on the part of the Soviets against the Anglo-American alliance.
At this point (early 1946), Truman was trying to have it both ways. He figured out by the time of the Berlin crisis that appeasement was out of the question and that Stalin required a firm hand.
This does not mean that the end of the summer 1945 he wasn't trying to appear strong - he was filling the shoes of FDR for Pete's sake. But Truman was more reflective than his public persona suggests. I'm not a Truman apologist (although I am an admirer) - he made a lot of mistakes, but a good number are forgivable under the circumstances. He misunderstood the Soviet threat - but, again, it wasn't clear in 1945 and 1946 as it would be when they went nuclear and began a massive ICBM program.
The explanation that this was some kind of deft pivot in response to blowback doesn't stand historical scrutiny, I'm afraid. Truman spoke out against the so-called Anglo-American alliance that seemed directed at Moscow.
Truman participated in the whitewashing of Soviet aggression at Nuremberg under the Nazi-Soviet Pact. He allowed the Soviets to murder 3 million dissidents that the allies agreed to return to the USSR.
The communist spies in Truman's circle are almost unfathomable. If he didn't like Uncle Joe, he sure had a funny way of showing it.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:16 pm to therick711
quote:
The communist spies in Truman's circle are almost unfathomable.
They were everywhere. It doesn't say much for our sense, generally, as a nation, of the threat posed by this erstwhile ally. However, it would be remiss if I didn't point out that Harry Truman was President from the period of April 1945 to January 1953. This was a period of time in which we went from being a clear Soviet ally to bitter enemies in the Cold War - from the non-nuclear armed world to the thermonuclear armed one. And from the end of a war in which we were allies with the Soviets to a war in which we fought a Soviet proxy and literally defended democracy from Stalinism - all with Truman at the helm.
So, if you want to say he pussyfooted around with Stalin that cost lives (and liberty) because we underestimated/appeased him? Probably guilty of that and he would likely admit it. But, to accuse him of being an active, willing collaborator? I just don't see any evidence of that.
Americans are naïve (from which flows our optimism about the future). Our Presidents are often blissfully so. It is a strength AND weakness.
This post was edited on 5/31/16 at 3:18 pm
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:18 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
So, if you want to say he pussyfooted around with Stalin that cost lives (and liberty) because we underestimated/appeased him? Probably guilty of that and he would likely admit it. But, to accuse him of being an active, willing collaborator? I just don't see any evidence of that.
Sending 3 million people to their deaths against their will is pretty hard to whitewash by saying you don't see any evidence that he collaborated with Uncle Joe.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:21 pm to therick711
quote:
Sending 3 million people to their deaths against their will is pretty hard to whitewash by saying you don't see any evidence that he collaborated with Uncle Joe.
And what are you basing this figure on? Folks who were already under Soviet occupation? You're not suggesting we gave them 3 million people to kill - just that we didn't start WWIII to stop them.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:32 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
And what are you basing this figure on? Folks who were already under Soviet occupation? You're not suggesting we gave them 3 million people to kill - just that we didn't start WWIII to stop them.
I'm talking about the forced repatriation concession we made with the Soviets. Those were folks who were in Allied controlled areas (for this discussion, that does not include Soviet occupied areas, in those places, the Soviets just hunted them down and summarily executed them) that were deemed citizens of the USSR or Yugoslavia were returned to Russia against their will. They were put in forced labor camps and killed.
This post was edited on 5/31/16 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:02 pm to Napoleon
THANKS!
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:10 pm to Emteein
quote:
Why don't we hear more about the Russians helping to end WWII in the Pacific?
Because they really didn't do jack shite other than swoop in during the closing days and grab them a nice chunk of Mongolia, China, North Korea, and the Kuril Islands.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:17 pm to jeffsdad
It was amazing and was the largest job creator in Iran during WW2. It took tens of thousands of Iranians to keep the supplies moving.
It's crazy when you start looking into the logistics of WW2. Pipelines being ran as soon as soon as new beachheads were taken. Ports that were built in days. Bridges built in hours.
The Seebee and Corps of Engineers work in the war was outstanding.
It's crazy when you start looking into the logistics of WW2. Pipelines being ran as soon as soon as new beachheads were taken. Ports that were built in days. Bridges built in hours.
The Seebee and Corps of Engineers work in the war was outstanding.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:19 pm to LSURussian
he Japs were more concerned about another bomb , than they were with the Russians
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:20 pm to tigeraddict
quote:
the Japanese had some diplomatic discussions with the Russians all the way up to the Russians attacking manchuria.
Yep, the Japanese were trying to broker peace with the US through the Russians. That obviously fell apart when the Russians attacked. So in that sense the Russian attack helped push the Japanese to surrender because it eliminated the chance of a negotiated end to the war.
The Russians did not launch the invasion to help the US. It was simply a land grab. They had two spies inside Los Alamos and knew we were going to continue dropping nukes until Japan surrendered. In any case the Japanese knew they had lost the war by 1943, the simple economics were hopeless, regardless of any Russian attack.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 4:51 pm to Emteein
Because they didn't.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 5:07 pm to Spaceman Spiff
OP ask yourself: how soon did Japan surrender after the use of the A bomb?
Posted on 5/31/16 at 5:20 pm to Ace Midnight
the same buzzsaw that chewed up the finest divisions of the Wermacht and Waffen SS. Just to keep things completely in perspective.
The strategic capabilities of the United States would have been a whole different ball of wax for the Russians. The entire Pacific side of Russia wouldn't have lasted too long. On the European side, those hundreds of divisions would have never made it to the battlefront with the air campaign we would have unleashed.
The strategic capabilities of the United States would have been a whole different ball of wax for the Russians. The entire Pacific side of Russia wouldn't have lasted too long. On the European side, those hundreds of divisions would have never made it to the battlefront with the air campaign we would have unleashed.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 5:47 pm to Emteein
Posted on 5/31/16 at 5:49 pm to SadSouthernBuck
quote:
Roosevelt and Churchill discussed with Stalin
Mason's all three. They were buddies.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 5:52 pm to Emteein
quote:
it could be argued that their joining in the fight had just as much to do with ending the war in the pacific as the U.S. dropping the 2 atomic bombs.
try.
I will take the A-bombs.
go.
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