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re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:24 pm to ZappBrannigan
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:24 pm to ZappBrannigan
quote:
They aren't saying there is nothing before the Big Bang. It was all there. Just densely packed, all the energy, matter, anti-matter, stuff we haven't discovered yet but the math shows exists or points towards.
Well, it's also been said that there was nothing "before" the big bang...as that is what created space AND time.
It's a wild concept that I can't really wrap my brain around.
1
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:29 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
That's a pretty bold and scary stance to take. Science has been disproving things 90% of the world believed to be true since humans first started asking "why?"
I disagree. Religion, or at least the belief in a creator, has more than stood the test of time, test of science, ect. it hasn't gone anywhere. It's ebbed and flowed, but has otherwise held pretty steady. People have been worshiping since the dawn of man.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:30 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
It can be...it SHOULD be. But it clearly is not. The fact that it is not is the issue, and is what gets you "militant atheists." Which is basically just non-believers tired of being run over by the religious not able to keep their faith personal.
IMO the militant atheists/non-believers want believers to be silent and keep religion on the down low. It’s not a situation where they are being run over...I see it all the time when someone offers up a prayer for them and they get “offended” by it.
I believe it’s more of a coping mechanism for most (not all) of those who don’t believe in God....to justify leading a more “fun” lifestyle and feel better about doing things that maybe that little voice inside keeps saying might be wrong.
Take this from someone who absolutely believes in God but rarely (very rarely) goes to church.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:31 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
It's a wild concept that I can't really wrap my brain around.
And this is, I think, what much of this boils down to. Most people simply can not STAND the idea of something being real if they can't understand it. They also HATE not knowing things.
In the first case, that's how you get people arguing with ACTUAL experts in fields they can't even spell. In the second, it's how you get "answers" which are just magic place holders until science fills in the gaps.
Truth is...the fact you** and I and others here can't wrap our brains around a certain concept does not invalidate. Someone else maybe, or probably, can. Our ignorance is not a counterargument to their hypotheses.
**I know you're not suggesting this, I'm just using you as a point of reference.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:33 pm to lsut2005
quote:
I disagree. Religion, or at least the belief in a creator, has more than stood the test of time, test of science, ect. it hasn't gone anywhere. It's ebbed and flowed, but has otherwise held pretty steady. People have been worshiping since the dawn of man.
Your point was that you'd be willing to bet your life that anything believed by 91% of the world was more than likely true to an extent.
I'm not arguing against the fact that religion has been around for a long time. That's true. In my humble opinion, religion was an easy explanation for things early man could not explain. Like the sun actually being a god. You'd have certainly lost your life over that one because it was widely believed back then.
I also theorize that religion was an easy way to control far flung populations through threat of eternal damnation, to justify wars, or to simply take some of their money. I'm talking about "long ago" but it's obviously still doing many of those things today in certain religions.
This post was edited on 9/11/19 at 2:37 pm
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:36 pm to lsut2005
quote:
Religion, or at least the belief in a creator, has more than stood the test of time, test of science, ect
This is where you over reach. You can't test for a creator...and the minute you do you are told that the means in which you have to test couldn't possible produce any evidence.
It's basically Sagan's Dragon in my Garage.
quote:
“Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.”
LINK
He wrote this about alien abduction, but it's apt for this as well.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:37 pm to MAGA
quote:
to justify leading a more “fun” lifestyle and feel better about doing things that maybe that little voice inside keeps saying might be wrong.
And there comes morality only comes from religion again.
Atheists aren't out on killing sprees, kidnapping, beating people, steling just because gods never existed. A lot of us are just as moral and able to go about life in fair and just ways. We only get one go on the merry go round, why make it miserable for those around us?
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:40 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
Which is basically just non-believers tired of being run over by the religious not able to keep their faith personal.
They wouldn't be good Christians if they did that:
"Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." - Jesus of Nazareth, Matthew 28:19
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:43 pm to MAGA
quote:
IMO the militant atheists/non-believers want believers to be silent and keep religion on the down low. It’s not a situation where they are being run over...I see it all the time when someone offers up a prayer for them and they get “offended” by it.
All I can tell you is that in the American south, it's damn near impossible to avoid religion. But again, if you're religious, you may not even notice because your own confirmation bias is being tweaked by things you already find normal and acceptable.
BTW, why would someone offer a prayer for an atheist knowing they do not want or believe in any of that? is that not just attempting to be confrontational?
quote:
I believe it’s more of a coping mechanism for most (not all) of those who don’t believe in God....to justify leading a more “fun” lifestyle and feel better about doing things that maybe that little voice inside keeps saying might be wrong.
You'd be wrong. There is nothing about my life "more fun."
I simply do not believe in the existence of gods. It is odd that this keeps getting brought up. It KIND Of feel like this is what you guys would do if you were not being watched. Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:49 pm to GeauxTigerTM
To extrapolate the odds that our world was created from random cosmological events, was placed at the perfect distance from the sun, and for initial life to be formed out of nucleic acids without a huge amount of "energy," is beyond statistically impossible. Dunno... I'd bet my life on a creator. But I'm not going to keep arguing in circles here. Good convo gentlemen!
This post was edited on 9/11/19 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:49 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
They wouldn't be good Christians if they did that:
"Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." - Jesus of Nazareth, Matthew 28:19
Well then, I guess it's ok!
You ok with various other religions going around and doing what their books tell them to do, since to not do them would make them bad versions of their religion? Surely you'd have no problem with answering the door to Muslims trying to convert you from being an infidel...and maybe trying to kill you if you did not convert?
I mean, they'd be pretty bad Muslims if they did not do that. Would it make it more plausible if they quoted the Koran?
No...you are free to do whatever you'd like. but the fact that your religion tells you to go and bother me does not in ANY WAY mean I have to be ok with it, any more so than you should be ok with it from another religion in which you don't believe.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:51 pm to GeauxTigerTM
This has been a fascinating and well behaved debate. Kudos to both of you.
Here's how I see it FWIW:
1. Problem with creationism:
Who created the creator?
2. Problem with no creator theory:
What was there before there was something? If nothing, then what created the something.
It's the same problem in both scenarios.
Here's how I see it FWIW:
1. Problem with creationism:
Who created the creator?
2. Problem with no creator theory:
What was there before there was something? If nothing, then what created the something.
It's the same problem in both scenarios.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:53 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
Surely you'd have no problem with answering the door to Muslims trying to convert you from being an infidel...and maybe trying to kill you if you did not convert?
I wouldn't have to worry about that happening seeing as Muslims don't evangelize the same way Christians do.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:53 pm to lsut2005
quote:
To extrapolate the odds that our world was created from random cosmological events, was placed at the perfect distance from the sun, and for initial life to be formed out of nucleic acids without a huge amount of "energy," is beyond statistically impossible.
We would not be here to know if it was not...that's the part you keep failing to acknowledge. If it was not where it was, we'd have never evolved, and thus would not be here to lament our poor placement.
Declaring that because it was and we are here is evidence for a hand at work is not evidence. It's a hypothesis. The work in proving it lies ahead.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:54 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Hell, my niece straight up asked why her aunt never goes to church with us when she stays over. I just evade the question for now.
I take her to a Catholic mass instead of a some local Baptist thing because:
1) Catholicism is what I know.
2) Same god.
3) It's at least better than that heathen Baptist crap she usually goes to with her parents.
I take her to a Catholic mass instead of a some local Baptist thing because:
1) Catholicism is what I know.
2) Same god.
3) It's at least better than that heathen Baptist crap she usually goes to with her parents.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 2:57 pm to ragincajun77
quote:
This has been a fascinating and well behaved debate. Kudos to both of you.
quote:
It's the same problem in both scenarios.
It's not though.
One requires an additional step, that happens to be supernatural. It's a FAR larger and unnecessary leap.
The issue is our lack of desire to answer, "I don't know" to a question for which we do not currently have a good answer. I can honestly say, "I don't know" to the question of "What was before the Big Bang?" When a religious person says, "God," they are simply guessing and pretending it's viable since I said I did not know.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 3:01 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
I wouldn't have to worry about that happening seeing as Muslims don't evangelize the same way Christians do.
Semantics aside, you do see my point, yes?
the fact that your religion instructs you to do a thing does not mean I'm bound to that doctrine and therefore have to be happy to listen to it. I should not be told I have to sit silently while you proselytize at me because it's what you are supposed to do because you're Christian any more so than you should have to sit quietly and accept something you'd consider to be complete nonsense from someone else's religion.
Do I need to just make up a religion here that requires me to do this at you before you'll see the point of how silly this is?
Posted on 9/11/19 at 3:06 pm to ZappBrannigan
quote:
Hell, my niece straight up asked why her aunt never goes to church with us when she stays over. I just evade the question for now.
I take her to a Catholic mass instead of a some local Baptist thing because:
1) Catholicism is what I know.
2) Same god.
3) It's at least better than that heathen Baptist crap she usually goes to with her parents.
Got to be honest...I really avoid mass at this point. I could fake it for a LOOONG time, but I have no patience for it now.
It does not hep that my in-laws have become EVEN MORE Catholic than they were 20 years ago. They now go to church multiple times a week, have mass at home, constantly going on retreats and trips all over the world to see churches (and essentially driving past the rest of the country) and are unable to have even a 10 minute conversation with anyone without bringing up Church. I kid you not, we went there a few weeks ago and they had invited the parish priest...to what was essentially their daughter's (my wife's) birthday party.
But yeah...it's clearly avoidable.
Posted on 9/11/19 at 3:08 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
Semantics aside, you do see my point, yes?
I'm afraid I don't see your point. This point assumes that all religions are equal and valid, yet that is not the case. But if a Muslim or Christian or Hindu were to come to my door and exclaim to me that I shall convert or die, you can bet your fortune that I will defend myself.
quote:
the fact that your religion instructs you to do a thing does not mean I'm bound to that doctrine and therefore have to be happy to listen to it.
And that's fine. No one is forcing you to listen. If you tell a Christian at your front door that you aren't interested, the vast majority of them will tell you to have a good day and be on their way.
quote:
I should not be told I have to sit silently while you proselytize at me because it's what you are supposed to do because you're Christian any more so than you should have to sit quietly and accept something you'd consider to be complete nonsense from someone else's religion.
A scenario that exists only in your mind. Christianity is big on the idea of free will.
This post was edited on 9/11/19 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 9/11/19 at 3:14 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
A scenario that exists only in your mind.
I do envy you guys. You get to live in a world that surrounds you with what you already believe. It's got to be comforting to constantly have your world view buffeted by everything around you.
This is why it's so funny to me that when an atheist dares step out of line and speaks out, they are immediately called "militant."
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