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Thib-a-doe Tiger
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re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

I'm feeling like you left some steps out, because I honestly don't understand the point you're getting at here. Is it that you're suggesting there needs to be a plan? If so, why?



I did. Let’s say the starting point is the box. We know we have it. We can see, touch, etc


What sounds more absurd to a person who has no feelings on the box? That someone/thing had a plan for the box, or that the box came to be from nothing?


lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
Pretty weak argument. A lot of people grow up with no religion and figure it out on their own. That's really putting limited faith in human's ability to thank for themselves. Maybe a creator makes the most sense logically? A lot of people think that way. Do I believe stories from the Old Testament? No way! Metaphors. Do I believe everything from the NT? No. Believe me, I've thought long and hard about this subject and have certainly had my doubts, but when I lay it all out, the case for a creator, God, whatever you want to call him, makes the most sense to me. And I'll say it again, when 91% of the WORLD believes in something I'd bet my life that it's probably going to end up being, to a certain extent, true.
This post was edited on 9/11 at 1:41 pm


Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:


I find the study into the origin of the universe fascinating, and love that we're continuing to learn about it. There are a number of theories for sure, but continuing to question and explore is healthy in my opinion.

Though I've always been one to question things and ask the why behind it. I'd be a terrible cult member



That’s my whole point. I love science, but there are astrophysicists and such that “believe” that there was absolutely nothing before the BB. Like I said, thermodynamics says matter can’t be created or destroyed, only changed. So we have astrophysicists who literally believe that something happened to nothing and created everything


That sounds as absurd as some sky man playing with his puppets, no?


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Gotcha, so with about 9% of the WORLDS population (and that's being generous as some studies have it as way lower) classified as atheists, I guess the other 91% are just ignorant idiots who believe in magic?


I mean, yes.

Are you suggesting that loads of people all believing in the same superstitions make them real?

What percentage of the world's population, do you think, once believed in witches? Or demonic reasons for common illnesses? Supernatural reasons for weather phenomenon? How many humans once fully believed in the Olympian gods? Or the Aztecs? Or Egyptian?

What about all the people on earth who believe diametrically opposed religions than your own? There are nearly as many Muslims on earth as Christians. Does their near equal numbers make them equally right? What about the over 1 billion Hindus and their polytheistic views? They right too?

Justin Beiber now had nearly 107,000,000 Twitter followers. Paul McCartney has 4 million. Guess Beiber is better...more people agree with him.


lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
Right, so when you say "we're past that"... clearly that is NOT the case.

quote:

What about all the people on earth who believe diametrically opposed religions than your own? There are nearly as many Muslims on earth as Christians. Does their near equal numbers make them equally right? What about the over 1 billion Hindus and their polytheistic views? They right too?


I don't consider any of them to be wrong. Religion is a very personal thing, as I said earlier in the thread.
This post was edited on 9/11 at 1:47 pm


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

What sounds more absurd to a person who has no feelings on the box? That someone/thing had a plan for the box, or that the box came to be from nothing?


I guess this is where we simply disagree. I see no reason to assume a reason for anything, especially not the totality of the entire universe.

Plus, as I said earlier, to invoke the need for a creator must also invoke the desire to either A) answer the question of who created THAT entity, or B) wave your hand at that question and declare it unknowable.

I'm just Occam's Razoring this and removing the need for the un-explainable creator without a creator. Offering up that additional step requires some additional evidence...which no one is willing to able to do.


Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Offering up that additional step requires some additional evidence...which no one is willing to able to do.



Hawking said you could disregard everything before the Big Bang. I can say the same as wanting to know what there was before it. Because if that answer is “nothing” like some scientists suggest, then it goes against observed science that we already have


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

I don't consider any of them to be wrong.


Then you don't understand the meaning of the word. Jews and Christians can not both be right. Hindus and Christians are clearly not both right. Jews and Muslims...nope. No one thinks Mormons OR Scientologists are right about anything. And that's just looking at the major religions and not the variants among each, which are so great they've created endless wars on parts of our planets between the SAME religions.

I guess we could back up at this point and simply ask you what you actually DO believe in. One of my main issues with debating this topic with religious folks is that, despite the fact that there are all of these variants, what ends up happening is that there are argument between "believers" on one side and "non-believers" on the other. Truth is, most religious people have no reason to be teaming up in this debate until they can hash out their own differences. It's impossible for me to debate specifics with you before I know the type of religious person I'm in a debate with.

All I'm saying is rather than debating with generic religious guy, maybe you could tell me what it is you do believe in, and then we can start form there?


Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

I'm saying is rather than debating with generic religious guy, maybe you could tell me what it is you do believe in, and then we can start form there?




That shouldn’t matter in a creator/no creator argument


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:


Hawking said you could disregard everything before the Big Bang.


What he was saying is that we currently do not know. Not that we should not continue to look. After all, as incredible a mind as Newton was, he also believed in alchemy...which we know to be completely wrong today. We may learn, as a species, what came before.

quote:

I can say the same as wanting to know what there was before it.


I absolutely want to know. I'm not willing to say I do know, and I'm fairly certain no scientist is suggesting they do...merely hypothesizing various possibilities.

quote:

Because if that answer is “nothing” like some scientists suggest, then it goes against observed science that we already have


Maybe. Scientific finds do change as more evidence is obtained.

I'm perfectly ok with saying "I don't know." Where I tend to differ with religious folks is that they don't seem comfortable with that. I have no reason to insert a creator into a gap just to make myself feel better about my ignorance in an area. It doesn't ad anything to it as far as I'm concerned.


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lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
Just because their version of a creator is different than mine doesn’t change anything in my opinion. As I said, religion is a very personal thing.


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

That shouldn’t matter in a creator/no creator argument


Right, but we tend to get beyond that.

That being said, I'm far more interested in theism than deism. Likewise, I respect fundamentalists far more than moderate religious folks who act as if they have a decoder rings telling them which parts of their holy books to take literally and which parts to ignore as fable. That's interesting to me. When people start sounding like Depaak Choopra and talking about "spirituality" I tend to tune out.

Debating deism seems pointless to me. I think it simply falls apart on its face by asking "who created the creator?" If you go to Special Pleading to excuse the need for a creator, since everything needs to be created, you lose.

Specifics of various beliefs interest me more.


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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

As I said, religion is a very personal thing.


It can be...it SHOULD be. But it clearly is not.

The fact that it is not is the issue, and is what gets you "militant atheists." Which is basically just non-believers tired of being run over by the religious not able to keep their faith personal.


lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
I certainly agree that people need to mind their own business, except when it comes to message board debates such as this
This post was edited on 9/11 at 2:17 pm


ZappBrannigan
LSU Fan
Member since Jun 2015
5116 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
They aren't saying there is nothing before the Big Bang. It was all there. Just densely packed, all the energy, matter, anti-matter, stuff we haven't discovered yet but the math shows exists or points towards.


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

I did. Let’s say the starting point is the box. We know we have it. We can see, touch, etc


What sounds more absurd to a person who has no feelings on the box? That someone/thing had a plan for the box, or that the box came to be from nothing?


But here's the thing. The most important thing.



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Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

And I'll say it again, when 91% of the WORLD believes in something I'd bet my life that it's probably going to end up being, to a certain extent, true.



That's a pretty bold and scary stance to take. Science has been disproving things 90% of the world believed to be true since humans first started asking "why?"


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

I certainly agree that people need to mind their own business


I'm an outspoken atheist...here. Not anywhere else. Not because I secretly believe, but because I know that where I live I'd be better served to suggest I'm a Muslim pedophile than an atheist. At least a Muslim believes in a god, right?

quote:

except when it comes to message board debates such as this


I'm just discussing ideas...nothing more.


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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Science has been disproving things 90% of the world believed to be true since humans first started asking "why?"


Yeah...he kinda breezed past that part of my answer to him...


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Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

That’s my whole point. I love science, but there are astrophysicists and such that “believe” that there was absolutely nothing before the BB. Like I said, thermodynamics says matter can’t be created or destroyed, only changed. So we have astrophysicists who literally believe that something happened to nothing and created everything


That sounds as absurd as some sky man playing with his puppets, no?


I don't totally disagree with you there. But we're continuing to learn more and more. For example, scientists have been pressure testing the theory of relativity for years, and we think that it may break down in black holes. So if that's the case for a simple black hole (simple now since science has definitely proven they exist), I'd say all bets are off when it comes to the creation of the universe (or this iteration of the universe).


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