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lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Why would someone have had to create them? And if we're going to go down the road of "all things have a creator" then who created him? Or are we just going to go with special pleading at this point and claim magic powers that exclude him from your own rule?


Which is why God, or whoever our creator may be, is considered to be incomprehensible. Way beyond our ability as humans to grasp.
This post was edited on 9/11 at 1:02 pm


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Well if you read the Bible, in John it states that Satan is in control of the earth. So people attributing bad things to God/ a god letting them happen could be rebuked with that


quote:

But a believer could say “so you really believe that all matter in the universe was contained inside a ball the size of a soccer ball?”


You can see how things things are not remotely the same though, right?

One is quoting source materials to verify the same source materials. It's like quoting Lord of the Rings to prove the existence of Sauron.

The second is mathematically provable. Given we understand the universe is expanding, it's just math that gets us back to the point at which it must have all been in the same spot. At that point, who knows.

And just to make it more interesting, The Big Bang was first theorized by Belgian priest Georges Lemaître. Nothing anti-religion about the Big Bang. Well, unless you're a Young Earther and think the earth and universe are 6,000 year old.


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Which is why God, or whoever our creator may be, is considered to be incomprehensible


A) That's all the religious do...speak for god.

B) Playing the "it's beyond our comprehension" card is simply asking everyone around you to stop asking questions and remain ignorant. That worked wonders for the religious at one point, but we're beyond that.


Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
I’m just saying you can always find a counterpoint no matter which side you’re on


But people who are on the atheist end are more than happy to believe that everything came from nothing, but make fun of those who believe that someone/thing created it all


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

But people who are on the atheist end are more than happy to believe that everything came from nothing, but make fun of those who believe that someone/thing created it all


Because to believe that someone/thing created everything creates a never ending regression problem. At some point, you have to throw up your hands and say, "No...this thing is special and required nothing to create it" which breaks the rules of everything having to have had a creator.

All we're doing to removing those obstacles. If the faithful are going to eventually suggest that their something came from nothing, but there's also magic...why can I not suggest that everything came from nothing without magic?

Both require something from nothing, but one also requires the supernatural. Why is the inclusion of the supernatural more appealing?


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Well if you read the Bible, in John it states that Satan is in control of the earth. So people attributing bad things to God/ a god letting them happen could be rebuked with that

Then the atheist could say “well then how are miracles on Earth performed?”

And you could go round and round


But a believer could say “so you really believe that all matter in the universe was contained inside a ball the size of a soccer ball?”

And again you could go round and round


Difference being that the atheist is driven by a quest to understand how things are the way they are and why they work the way they do.

The religious person would say "well, the bible says...".

It's a big difference.


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

GeauxTigerTM


List of people to never debate on the OT

1) GeauxTigerTM



Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Right...back before we had actual evidence for why things happened


It was only a few hundred years ago where people would get killed for suggesting the earth wasn't the center of the universe, because the church said god made it that way. And now we know obviously that that couldn't have been farther from the truth.

Again, that difference between blindly believing something because you're told to vs striving to learn and understand. Though the religious have a unique ability to dismiss those pesky facts around that stuff.


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Chitown_Badger




Glad this has stayed up for a while. Truth is, maybe 10 years or so ago back when there were all those stories about school boards attempting to take evolution out of classrooms, we had GREAT debates on the board. Most of them were over on the PoliBoard back then, and they would get heated. They eventually got moved here, and then outright banned because religious posters seemed unable to just NOT click threads which were obviously going to make them mad...and once they clicked them, they got mad and complained.

You'd have been a solid addition to those things!


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

But people who are on the atheist end are more than happy to believe that everything came from nothing, but make fun of those who believe that someone/thing created it all


That's not why we make fun of you. And no one is making fun of you, just pointing out the absurdity of it (and I'm talking about everything outside the creation of the universe...the praising of God, his plan for all of us...perhaps including the bad stuff...or not, I'm not sure, his laws we're supposed to live by, etc etc)


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Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Because to believe that someone/thing created everything creates a never ending regression problem. At some point, you have to throw up your hands and say, "No...this thing is special and required nothing to create it" which breaks the rules of everything having to have had a creator.

All we're doing to removing those obstacles. If the faithful are going to eventually suggest that their something came from nothing, but there's also magic...why can I not suggest that everything came from nothing without magic?

Both require something from nothing, but one also requires the supernatural. Why is the inclusion of the supernatural more appealing?





What you fail to realize is both sides of the coin have the same issue.


Let’s make this simple. A man wants to make a box. He has the ability to plant and grow the tree that the wood will come from, harvest the tree and saw it into boards, etc etc etc


End result is a box


Now apply that to BB, and you go from nobody wanting anything to having a box for no reason



lsut2005
SMU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2009
1997 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

B) Playing the "it's beyond our comprehension" card is simply asking everyone around you to stop asking questions and remain ignorant. That worked wonders for the religious at one point, but we're beyond that.


Gotcha, so with about 9% of the WORLDS population (and that's being generous as some studies have it as way lower) classified as atheists, I guess the other 91% are just ignorant idiots who believe in magic? But we're beyond that right?


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

You'd have been a solid addition to those things!


Ha, thanks. I love a good conversation/debate, as long as it stays above the boards, which this one has.


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Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

just pointing out the absurdity of it



Just as many people find it absurd that “nothing” blew up into everything for no reason


If you research what there was before the Big Bang, you can find answers that range from nothing to everything you know being condensed into a soccer ball sized area. The soccer ball sized area I could maybe buy, but the nothing answer is quite absurd as well, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed


GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

It was only a few hundred years ago where people would get killed for suggesting the earth wasn't the center of the universe, because the church said god made it that way. And now we know obviously that that couldn't have been farther from the truth.


Keep in mind, Galileo had to wait until 1992 to get an official apology from the church.

What with his heretical views on heliocentrism...


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ZappBrannigan
LSU Fan
Member since Jun 2015
5116 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
Well not totally true a lot of Catholic priest and monks have been instrumental in our understanding of astronomy, geology, andbiology


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Gotcha, so with about 9% of the WORLDS population (and that's being generous as some studies have it as way lower) classified as atheists, I guess the other 91% are just ignorant idiots who believe in magic? But we're beyond that right?



I'm not answering for him, but religion is a learned belief system, just like my "Santa Clause" (get it?) from earlier in this thread. What percentage of children in the world whose parents tell them santa is coming believe in Santa?

The belief in some form of religion, no matter how many people believe in it, does not make science and facts (many of which disprove biblical or religious events) null and void.


Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
LaTour and in BRgetthenet's head
Member since Nov 2012
30892 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Well not totally true a lot of Catholic priest and monks have been instrumental in our understanding of astronomy, geology, andbiology




I heard NDT say on a podcast that the Gregorian calendar is the most accurate calendar that could ever be made


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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
18058 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

What you fail to realize is both sides of the coin have the same issue.


I'm open to hearing this out...

quote:

Let’s make this simple. A man wants to make a box. He has the ability to plant and grow the tree that the wood will come from, harvest the tree and saw it into boards, etc etc etc


End result is a box


Now apply that to BB, and you go from nobody wanting anything to having a box for no reason


I'm feeling like you left some steps out, because I honestly don't understand the point you're getting at here. Is it that you're suggesting there needs to be a plan? If so, why?


Chitown_Badger
Wisconsin Fan
A one drink walk from Wrigley
Member since May 2013
11465 posts

re: Virgin Mary painting shows 'tears' at Chicago church
quote:

Just as many people find it absurd that “nothing” blew up into everything for no reason


If you research what there was before the Big Bang, you can find answers that range from nothing to everything you know being condensed into a soccer ball sized area. The soccer ball sized area I could maybe buy, but the nothing answer is quite absurd as well, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed


I find the study into the origin of the universe fascinating, and love that we're continuing to learn about it. There are a number of theories for sure, but continuing to question and explore is healthy in my opinion.

Though I've always been one to question things and ask the why behind it. I'd be a terrible cult member


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