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re: Vanderbilt football player got 15-25 yrs for rape; Stanford athlete got 6 months
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:41 pm to Topwater Trout
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:41 pm to Topwater Trout
quote:
So people that are seriously impaired can't flee from implied danger?
He had some cognizance that what he was doing was wrong, thus the running away from the unconscious girl. If it was just a random hookup between two consensual adults, why run?
1
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:44 pm to chattabama
I think that is clear.
People often claim not to have moral responsibility because they were impaired - but the proof of this being a lie is when they know others are watching and they abruptly change their behavior.
If he ran once he knew there were witnesses that destroys any claim he has to a lack of moral awareness.
People often claim not to have moral responsibility because they were impaired - but the proof of this being a lie is when they know others are watching and they abruptly change their behavior.
If he ran once he knew there were witnesses that destroys any claim he has to a lack of moral awareness.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:47 pm to molsusports
There are very few people that believe he wasn't guilty.
I find the light sentence very peculiar and I hope that there is more accountability.
I find the light sentence very peculiar and I hope that there is more accountability.
This post was edited on 6/9/16 at 11:48 pm
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:58 pm to slackster
quote:
Getting black out drunk wouldn't be a safety issue for women if men weren't rapey criminals.
You can shite in one hand and wish in another and see which one fills up faster. I'd like for there to be no famine, war and pestilence while we're at it.
What perplexes me the most about this issue is why people can't accept reality. We can accept that people will steal or murder but somehow society believes we can become rape free by educating people. That's where we live in fantasyland.
I want to believe that at some point the gazelle will be able to sit with the lion but until then, it's imbecilic to get blacked out drunk.
The funny thing is I really wouldn't even be discussing the fact that she blacked out if it weren't for the "rape culture" bullshite articles that I decided to read. I am going to tell me daughter "please don't drink to incapacitation and also go out in numbers." Anybody who tells me I am complicit to rape culture just lacks common sense.
This post was edited on 6/10/16 at 12:03 am
Posted on 6/10/16 at 8:44 am to slackster
quote:
I can't think of a worse thread to ask this question, but I'm going to do it anyway - how is the sleeping arrangement going for your son who was having trouble in his room every night?
About half the time he stays in his own bed, the other half he sleeps on the floor next to our bed on a mat. But he's slowly staying in his bed more and never our bed, so I'll take it.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 8:46 am to slackster
quote:Let's do it this way, take out the rape part.
I do, and when the time comes, I will, but I'll never concede the idea that God forbid they're incapacitated and a sociopath rapes them that they're an imbecile for drinking too much. It will always be about the sociopath, the criminal. ETA: In essence the idea is that as a woman, you shouldn't get drunk because you might get raped, and if you do get drunk and get raped, you're an imbecile for letting it get to that point. I just refuse to accept that as realistic consequence of getting drunk.
You find out your 18 year old daughter who is still in high school got black out drunk and was unconscious behind a dumpster. You're going to talk to her about it and tell her what? You won't tell her that her behavior is pretty dumb and reckless and really bad things could happen to her when she's unconscious behind a dumpster?
Posted on 6/10/16 at 8:59 am to slackster
quote:It's only disturbing in the context that, yea, you're taking away from the actual rapist.
In the context of this situation, coming away saying "this is why you don't get black out drunk" is about as insensitive and frankly disturbing as you can be. Getting black out drunk wouldn't be a safety issue for women if men weren't rapey criminals. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for some of you to understand.
But your argument is strange, it really does seem like you're saying if a woman wants to get black out drunk and unconscious, no biggie.
Why in the world wouldn't this be a tool to be used to show women this is 100% a reason why you should not get black out drunk to the point where you have zero control of yourself and your body and you're putting yourself at the mercy of anyone, the first person who finds you in that state? Isn't it totally logical to use this as an example to show younger girls that this is one of many reasons you should control your drinking when out and about?
Posted on 6/10/16 at 9:02 am to NoHoTiger
quote:First, this is laughably just a terrible take. But I figured out why. You think anyone who says this or any girl should be responsible enough to not get black out drunk doesn't think this:
Those of you saying that you are not blaming her BUT she should not have gotten that drunk are absolutely mitigating the actions of the person who assaulted her. You don't get to say that she is responsible for her drunken behavior and then using his inebriation to mitigate his drunken behavior.
quote:Again, which is why you're take is soooooo bad.
The only person to blame for this situation is the guy who assaulted her. No one else.
I'll ask this in the simplest of terms, do you think it's a bad idea for a girl to get drunk to the point of unconsciousness behind a dumpster? Answer is yes, I assume? Ok, that's the only point I and others are trying to make, so you see, my guess is you don't even disagree with the other side, so I don't see what your issue actually is.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 9:07 am to shel311
quote:
You're going to talk to her about it and tell her what? You won't tell her that her behavior is pretty dumb and reckless and really bad things could happen to her when she's unconscious behind a dumpster?
I'll tell her that, unfortunately, she needs to be vigilant. There are terrible people in this world, and they'll take advantage of you if given the opportunity. If you're going to drink, be careful not to get too wasted to where you're effectively out on your feet.
In the Stanford case, the girl was drunk, but wasn't unconscious until she was behind the dumpster. The guy took her away from the party while she was still on her feet, although she apparently doesn't recall any of it.
It is a good idea to not drink until you're unconscious, and I'm not trying to debate otherwise, but the idea that a woman is an imbecile for it because she can be raped is ridiculous. Either everyone who drinks to that point is a reckless imbecile or none of them are.
I'll try this analogy - most people would say their home is a safe place. If someone breaks into your home and assaults you, you can't look back on it in hindsight and say that obviously your home isn't a safe space. There are reasonable assumptions one should be able to make, and if something rare happens, it doesn't mean those assumptions were wrong.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 9:18 am to slackster
Everyone who drinks to that extreme point is an imbecile. Not sure what you're arguing against really. The guy is a POS that should be doing more time than he got. Anyone that gets blackout drunk is being reckless. These are not opposing ideas.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 9:22 am to slackster
quote:Isn't that basically exactly what the molsusports guy(and myself) are saying? Again, I'm not sure what point of his you didn't agree with.
I'll tell her that, unfortunately, she needs to be vigilant. There are terrible people in this world, and they'll take advantage of you if given the opportunity. If you're going to drink, be careful not to get too wasted to where you're effectively out on your feet.
quote:Again, I know it's treading lightly here, but think about talking with your daughter again...aren't you going to tell her about things, maybe not this specific but you get the idea, like not getting so drunk that you allow some random dude to walk you behind a dumpster where you pass out? That's the point.
In the Stanford case, the girl was drunk, but wasn't unconscious until she was behind the dumpster. The guy took her away from the party while she was still on her feet, although she apparently doesn't recall any of it.
quote:yes, everyone is, obviously. When people drink too much, they do dumb things, do you really disagree with that?
It is a good idea to not drink until you're unconscious, and I'm not trying to debate otherwise, but the idea that a woman is an imbecile for it because she can be raped is ridiculous. Either everyone who drinks to that point is a reckless imbecile or none of them are
quote:Wait, what? eh, this doesn't make sense, not really up for picking it apart lol.
I'll try this analogy - most people would say their home is a safe place. If someone breaks into your home and assaults you, you can't look back on it in hindsight and say that obviously your home isn't a safe space. There are reasonable assumptions one should be able to make, and if something rare happens, it doesn't mean those assumptions were wrong.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 9:25 am to monkeybutt
quote:That, all of it!
Everyone who drinks to that extreme point is an imbecile. Not sure what you're arguing against really. The guy is a POS that should be doing more time than he got. Anyone that gets blackout drunk is being reckless. These are not opposing ideas.
As I said before think about a hypothetical without the dude here, let's say your 18 year old high school daughter calls you and says she woke up behind a dumpster and needs you to come pick her up. Think about that logically, when you're driving her home, aren't you going to tell her how stupid and reckless she was for drinking and passing out behind a dumpster? And you'll probably mention all the bad things that could have happened to her because there are bad people in this world, so she may want to be more responsible to not put herself in that position and have more control over herself and her actions? I don't know, that just feels like the most logical thing ever to say that, not sure what I'm missing.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 12:09 pm to slackster
quote:
I'll try this analogy - most people would say their home is a safe place. If someone breaks into your home and assaults you, you can't look back on it in hindsight and say that obviously your home isn't a safe space. There are reasonable assumptions one should be able to make, and if something rare happens, it doesn't mean those assumptions were wrong.
Slackster - are you a SJW? Because a lot of us have firearms and security systems because we have a pulse on reality already
. It's really not a reasonable assumption that your home is a safe place 100%. There's always risk and everyone should take reasonable steps to mitigate it. Also, getting blacked out drunk is much more risky than going without a firearm or security system in your house. You are subjecting yourself to pranks, saying stupid shite, ruining relationships, public intoxication charges, DUII, being an annoyance, throwing up, alcohol poisoning, memory loss, drunk dialing, urinating in public, etc.
This post was edited on 6/10/16 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 6/10/16 at 12:20 pm to Street Hawk
It's called class warfare
The Rich and powerful get away with Murder, while the middle and poor, do the time.
This was purely class warfare
The Rich and powerful get away with Murder, while the middle and poor, do the time.
This was purely class warfare
Posted on 6/10/16 at 12:22 pm to Street Hawk
Liberal Judges are the ruin.
It's why you hear about 3 time gun felons out on the streets, after doing months, instead of years.
It's why you hear about 3 time gun felons out on the streets, after doing months, instead of years.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 12:30 pm to shel311
quote:
do you think it's a bad idea for a girl to get drunk to the point of unconsciousness behind a dumpster?
As a general rule I think it's a bad idea for anyone to get drunk to the point of unconsciousness. However, getting drunk to any point does not mean you are consenting to anything.
The guy assaulted her. He is the only one guilty of anything.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 12:55 pm to NoHoTiger
quote:
The guy assaulted her. He is the only one guilty of anything.
We all agree on this point. I wouldn't even discuss the fact that she were drunk if it weren't for articles telling me as a father to not have the conversation with my daughter and tell me son not to rape. Someone should've helped her instead of assaulting her.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 1:00 pm to bisonduck
he did not rape her. he fingerbanged her
Posted on 6/10/16 at 2:52 pm to bisonduck
quote:
Slackster - are you a SJW?
Nah, definitely not, but since the birth of my daughter I tend to be overly sensitive to topics like this.
quote:
Because a lot of us have firearms and security systems because we have a pulse on reality already . It's really not a reasonable assumption that your home is a safe place 100%. There's always risk and everyone should take reasonable steps to mitigate it.
I don't disagree, and my point about the home invasion was simply to say that the result (home invasion) shouldn't affect whether or not you were right to feel safe in your home. With the Stanford case, it seems as though many people (not necessarily those in the thread lately) want to chastise the woman for being blacked out because she was raped, and that simply isn't the way to handle it. Being that drunk is glossed over all the damn time, but once you get raped, people will say you're responsible for letting that happen to you, and I just cannot come to grips with that line of thinking.
quote:
You are subjecting yourself to pranks, saying stupid shite, ruining relationships, public intoxication charges, DUII, being an annoyance, throwing up, alcohol poisoning, memory loss, drunk dialing, urinating in public, etc.
All of those actions, minus the pranks, are 100% your fault. You are the one doing them. Being raped because your drunk is not your fault, it is the fault of the person doing the raping. Getting drunk and being led away to your eventual sexual assault is on an entirely different planet.
Posted on 6/10/16 at 3:54 pm to slackster
quote:
Nah, definitely not, but since the birth of my daughter I tend to be overly sensitive to topics like this.
I have a 12 year old daughter and 6 month old daughter. Some kid already placed his hand under my daughter's butt on the bus - random kid she didn't know two years older than her. I've had enough conversations with her that the she got up and reported it. If you don't have the conversations with your daughter, they will sit there and get violated. They need to know it's dangerous while at the same time empowering them.
The problem I have with this "rape culture" movement is 1) people think we can have a rape free culture through education (i.e., it's the nice guy that doesn't understand consent) and 2) women are entitled to to feel safe and not be subjected to the anxiety that comes with knowing they could be raped at any time. Those two are working off of each other. Meaning, if we can accomplish one we can have two.
The reality as I see it is 1) there will always be rapists and 2) the way to feel safe is to take action and mitigate said risk. Yes, it's unfair that women have more at stake but I was always told life isn't fair. I will empathize with feminists that it's unfair and at the same time hold my ground that I didn't create the parameters - that was mother nature. That's called the real world.
This post was edited on 6/10/16 at 3:58 pm
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