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re: Vanderbilt football player got 15-25 yrs for rape; Stanford athlete got 6 months
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:11 pm to slackster
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:11 pm to slackster
quote:
She's wasn't trying to do something she physically cannot or should not do.
This is the problem. We are so worried about offense that we are unwilling to tell people not to drink to the point of completely being incapacitated.
This is just stupid.
Again, it in no way abrogates the responsibility of a rapist or murderer who takes advantage of someone who is incapacitated but our society would be a lot healthier if we were willing to use common sense and tell our friends and family members not to put themselves at risk.
2
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:15 pm to molsusports
quote:
our society would be a lot healthier if we were willing to use common sense and tell our friends and family members not to put themselves at risk.
Fair enough. It just bothers me that this kind of talk often takes attention away from the problem - a rapist criminal. Women getting drunk at a party isn't the problem. I'm not suggesting you said otherwise, but it often occurs in these threads.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:21 pm to slackster
quote:
Fair enough. It just bothers me that this kind of talk often takes attention away from the problem - a rapist criminal. Women getting drunk at a party isn't the problem
You're 50% right but the 50% that you're wrong is profoundly important and troubling.
It is possible and preferable for us to both punish people performing criminal misdeeds AND for us to tell our friends and family not to behave stupidly. Especially when their stupidity puts themselves or other people at risk.
There's a problem with the culture when it refuses to admit drinking to the point of being unconscious is a problem.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:32 pm to molsusports
quote:
There's a problem with the culture when it refuses to admit drinking to the point of being unconscious is a problem.
Fine, but most of the people only want to talk about it as a problem when the woman is raped. All the times it happens and nothing criminal occurs it is simply glossed over. It just pisses me off that it is often used out of convenience to provide mitigating circumstances and place blame on the victim once she is assaulted.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:37 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
The white dude "raped" a chick in slut-denial.
Uh she was unconscious.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 10:59 pm to slackster
Slackster - you're being dumb about this. It's poor psychological differentiation to jump from "it's imbecilic to get blackout drunk" to "you are responsible for someone raping you." It's not a logical argument.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:04 pm to slackster
No one is blaming her for his actions. Actually, the response is outrage and rightfully so. However, SJWs are asking us to tell our boys to stop raping and don't tell your girls not to drink too much. It's pure fantasyland.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:06 pm to dukke v
quote:
She should also be held responsible for what happened to her.
Victim Blaming 101
Did you ever drink too much in college? If so, did you deserve to get raped because you drank alcohol?
The only thing the victim "deserved" was the natural consequence of drinking, a hangover the next morning.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:10 pm to bisonduck
quote:
No one is blaming her for his actions. Actually, the response is outrage and rightfully so. However, SJWs are asking us to tell our boys to stop raping and don't tell your girls not to drink too much. It's pure fantasyland.
In the context of this situation, coming away saying "this is why you don't get black out drunk" is about as insensitive and frankly disturbing as you can be.
Getting black out drunk wouldn't be a safety issue for women if men weren't rapey criminals. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for some of you to understand.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:13 pm to slackster
quote:
Fine, but most of the people only want to talk about it as a problem when the woman is raped. All the times it happens and nothing criminal occurs it is simply glossed over. It just pisses me off that it is often used out of convenience to provide mitigating circumstances and place blame on the victim once she is assaulted.
It seems to me you never want to talk about it. Neither when something happens nor when it does not.
RE: the mitigating circumstances claim? I don't think even the crazy judge in this case invoked that nonsense. I think that is outside of the realm of regular reality. You might infer that to be a motivation because that's where your moral judgment is more focused, but there just aren't a lot of people offering that as a defense IMO.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:15 pm to slackster
quote:
Getting black out drunk wouldn't be a safety issue for women if men weren't rapey criminals.
Here you jump to the absurd. Lesbians and women rape other women and men. Men rape other men.
Sexual violence is not sexually restricted to heterosexual men in spite of the desire of many people in academia to argue that it is.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:18 pm to molsusports
quote:
Here you jump to the absurd. Lesbians and women rape other women and men. Men rape other men.
Sexual violence is not sexually restricted to heterosexual men in spite of the desire of many people in academia to argue that it is.
All of this is true, but none of it applies to the context of this situation. To be clear, I was replying to the guy who says that SJWs want men to stop being rapey and women need to stop drinking so much. That is an asinine take and deserves an equally absurd take.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:20 pm to molsusports
Then I would like to flip this scenario and say the young man from Stanford should not have gotten himself to the point of inebriation that he didn't realize it was a bad thing to remove a girl's clothes and ran his fingers inside of her. Then leave her partially clothed and unconscious on the ground by a dumpster. Perhaps if the young man had been a little more careful with his own sobriety he would have realized that she needed help finding her sister and getting back home.
frick anybody who thinks any victim of a violent crime, or any crime, is more responsible than the frickead head that committeed the crime. Those of you saying that you are not blaming her BUT she should not have gotten that drunk are absolutely mitigating the actions of the person who assaulted her. You don't get to say that she is responsible for her drunken behavior and then using his inebriation to mitigate his drunken behavior. The only person to blame for this situation is the guy who assaulted her. No one else.
frick anybody who thinks any victim of a violent crime, or any crime, is more responsible than the frickead head that committeed the crime. Those of you saying that you are not blaming her BUT she should not have gotten that drunk are absolutely mitigating the actions of the person who assaulted her. You don't get to say that she is responsible for her drunken behavior and then using his inebriation to mitigate his drunken behavior. The only person to blame for this situation is the guy who assaulted her. No one else.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:22 pm to slackster
The problem is on a modern campus his take is correct. There is a sensibility on many campuses that men are all dangerous disgusting potential rapists who probably would rape if they could get away with it. There are ridiculously inflated and fear mongering fake statistics being bandied about by campuses activists and certain humanities professors who seek to justify their "oppression" by campus environments with the rates of rape in post world war 2 Germany or war stricken Congo.
It is reasonable to tell your students of all types to behave responsibly and not do stupid things that put themselves at risk. It is unreasonable to infer that this amounts to victim blaming.
It is reasonable to tell your students of all types to behave responsibly and not do stupid things that put themselves at risk. It is unreasonable to infer that this amounts to victim blaming.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:24 pm to NoHoTiger
quote:
Then I would like to flip this scenario and say the young man from Stanford should not have gotten himself to the point of inebriation that he didn't realize it was a bad thing to remove a girl's clothes and ran his fingers inside of her. Then leave her partially clothed and unconscious on the ground by a dumpster. Perhaps if the young man had been a little more careful with his own sobriety he would have realized that she needed help finding her sister and getting back home.
I think your moral outrage has blinded you to me holding him completely responsible for his criminal actions.
quote:
frick anybody who thinks any victim of a violent crime, or any crime, is more responsible than the frickead head that committeed the crime.
You are just wrong if you attribute those beliefs to me or anyone else I have seen posting in this thread.
His victim should have behaved differently and was stupid to put herself at risk. As I argued 20 odd posts that in no way abrogates his status as a criminal or makes him less responsible.
Would you return to the example I gave about myself? If I wander, late at night, drunk, and alone into the French Quarter and am then raped or murdered... do I bear no responsibility?
Of course I'm not guilty of my own murder or rape. But I did behave like an imbecile and put myself at risk.
To reduce the number of people like that hypothetical me you ought to be able to place full criminal responsibility on my rapist or murderer - but moral responsibility of me for making incredibly stupid choices that put myself at risk.
This post was edited on 6/9/16 at 11:29 pm
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:27 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
I wonder why a female who is legally drunk is deemed incapable of being able to decide she wants to have sex, but a male who is legally drunk is considered rational enough to make the same decision? In fact a drunk male is supposed to be able to tell when a female is too drunk to be able to consent to sex.
Meh. He was sober enough to realize that he should haul arse when he saw the two graduate students.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:31 pm to Street Hawk
Duh
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:34 pm to slackster
I would never tell a victim you shouldn't of been drinking. That just adding salt to the wound. I am bringing it up in the context of articles telling me as a father not to tell my daughter to watch out for drinking too much and talk to my boy about not raping. I will have both conversations and I would be irresponsible not to.
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:35 pm to chattabama
So people that are seriously impaired can't flee from implied danger?
Posted on 6/9/16 at 11:38 pm to bisonduck
quote:
I would never tell a victim you shouldn't of been drinking.
At that point it is spilled milk because you failed to tell him or her before they became a reckless drinker.
To be effective the conversation must take place before they become victims.
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