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Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:11 pm to Will Cover
I would only add...
If you're trading in a vehicle and want top dollar, have all maintenance records in hand.
Vehicles that are serviced on the reg by a dealership receive better trade in values than vehicles serviced at a chain store or mom&pop garage.
The reason being is that the dealer will anticipate a lesser inspection charge from their own service dept if vehicle was maintained at a dealership vs chain store = more value added to your trade-in.
If you're trading in a vehicle and want top dollar, have all maintenance records in hand.
Vehicles that are serviced on the reg by a dealership receive better trade in values than vehicles serviced at a chain store or mom&pop garage.
The reason being is that the dealer will anticipate a lesser inspection charge from their own service dept if vehicle was maintained at a dealership vs chain store = more value added to your trade-in.
Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:11 pm to Mulat
No, not for sure.
The problem with car buying is there are so many factors at play, you can’t make an absolute statement like that.
Financing isn’t some evil thing, especially in the past few years of sub inflation rates.
The problem with car buying is there are so many factors at play, you can’t make an absolute statement like that.
Financing isn’t some evil thing, especially in the past few years of sub inflation rates.
Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:16 pm to Will Cover
Good info.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:26 pm to Will Cover
I sell cars at a big used dealership in Montana, and we’re a non-negotiating dealership. We do the best we can on each car and price them as aggressively as possible while still making a few bucks. We’re the most prolific used-only dealer in the state, so it works for us. We’re very strict about it; I would lose my job if I tried to cut someone a deal. If we have a vehicle marked at $10k, someone waving $9500 in my face doesn’t get to drive home in that unless they come up with another $500. That way, we ensure everyone gets the same deal EVERY time.
I find very few customers who actually WANT to negotiate. When I explain how we work to customers, 99.5% of them are totally fine with it. Anyone can look a price up on their phone and find out in 2 minutes whether it’s a good deal or not. We just try to make the whole process simple by taking the bullshite out.
I find very few customers who actually WANT to negotiate. When I explain how we work to customers, 99.5% of them are totally fine with it. Anyone can look a price up on their phone and find out in 2 minutes whether it’s a good deal or not. We just try to make the whole process simple by taking the bullshite out.
Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:55 pm to okietiger
quote:
When I sat down in the finance room after agreeing to a price, the finance guy goes “I hear you’re a peach.”
Frick those finance guys. They’re the worst part of the whole process. Had one change interest rates on me when I was young and I’ve tried to give each and every one hell ever since.
This post was edited on 4/22/18 at 9:56 pm
Posted on 4/22/18 at 9:56 pm to Will Cover
Just responding to save. Great post.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 12:48 am to Will Cover
This is so 1980s and so FULL of fail.
It’s 2018 - if you know what type of vehicle you want, you don’t have to step into the car dealership until you arrive to pick up your car that you’ve already found the best deal on.
You DO NOT get the best price with super duper negotiating tactics at a dealer (this only gets you that one dealer’s price) - you get the best deal by playing MULTIPLE dealers against each other, and this is easily done online. Zero negotiating should take place in the dealership. Zero.
bullshite. This is the PRIMARY negotiating tool. “Best prices” will drop like a rock when another dealer beats it. And then that “best price” will drop like a rock too. And so on, and so on. All of this is done in a matter of a couple days, spending just a few minutes each day. You’ll spend 1/10th of the time negotiating online with a half dozen dealers compared to the time you’ll spend haggling inside one dealership.
Jesus Christ, dude - did I mention it’s 2018?
Are you 90?
I’m so sick of reading about this “Will Cover” crap.
It’s antiquated. My dad used to buy a new Lincoln or Caddy every year when I was a kid in the ‘70s-‘80s and I’ve spent a lifetime in dealerships watching him do all of this same stuff. We’re in the 21st century now, and thankfully Al Gore invented the internet.
ETA: I’ve bought 6 cars in the past 5 years using the online method. Never had a dealer try to change any aspect of the deal, and they’ve always stuck to the trade value quoted based on just photos I’ve emailed. Do all negotiating via email or text so it is all in writing. I’ll allow a brief phone call for an introduction, then I end it with, “Don’t call me again - text me or email me.”
quote:
before you step foot into a car dealership
It’s 2018 - if you know what type of vehicle you want, you don’t have to step into the car dealership until you arrive to pick up your car that you’ve already found the best deal on.
You DO NOT get the best price with super duper negotiating tactics at a dealer (this only gets you that one dealer’s price) - you get the best deal by playing MULTIPLE dealers against each other, and this is easily done online. Zero negotiating should take place in the dealership. Zero.
quote:
If asked, do not share pricing with another dealership. The less they know, the more aggressive they need to be to compete for your business
bullshite. This is the PRIMARY negotiating tool. “Best prices” will drop like a rock when another dealer beats it. And then that “best price” will drop like a rock too. And so on, and so on. All of this is done in a matter of a couple days, spending just a few minutes each day. You’ll spend 1/10th of the time negotiating online with a half dozen dealers compared to the time you’ll spend haggling inside one dealership.
Jesus Christ, dude - did I mention it’s 2018?
Are you 90?
I’m so sick of reading about this “Will Cover” crap.
It’s antiquated. My dad used to buy a new Lincoln or Caddy every year when I was a kid in the ‘70s-‘80s and I’ve spent a lifetime in dealerships watching him do all of this same stuff. We’re in the 21st century now, and thankfully Al Gore invented the internet. ETA: I’ve bought 6 cars in the past 5 years using the online method. Never had a dealer try to change any aspect of the deal, and they’ve always stuck to the trade value quoted based on just photos I’ve emailed. Do all negotiating via email or text so it is all in writing. I’ll allow a brief phone call for an introduction, then I end it with, “Don’t call me again - text me or email me.”
This post was edited on 4/23/18 at 1:11 am
Posted on 4/23/18 at 1:09 am to SUB
quote:
Thanks, but can you provide something in your first post that refers to sections updated? I’ve followed your previous posts, but it’d be nice to know what’s new without reading it all again.
Ingrate.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 1:31 am to TigrrrDad
quote:
TigrrrDad
You seem like a terrible person.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 1:35 am to starsandstripes
Because I’m tired of reading outdated nonsense?
By the way, I’m not arguing that I’m not a terrible person. Just not for correcting this rubbish. I buy a lot of cars - that is NOT how you buy a car in 2018.
ETA: ...and you seem pretty terrible yourself in the Q thread.
By the way, I’m not arguing that I’m not a terrible person. Just not for correcting this rubbish. I buy a lot of cars - that is NOT how you buy a car in 2018.
ETA: ...and you seem pretty terrible yourself in the Q thread.
This post was edited on 4/23/18 at 1:39 am
Posted on 4/23/18 at 1:43 am to Will Cover
When test driving a vehicle it's always good to have the dealer fill up the vehicle first. Then, drive 100 mph for at least 5 minutes. Have the dealer refill the tank and calculate mpg and use those numbers to wheel and deal. I've never seen a sales person that wasn't shocked with my approach. It completely throws them off of thier game. Good luck. 
Posted on 4/23/18 at 2:17 am to TigrrrDad
Ok....let's just look at things in more detail. But first, you are a terrible person. This guy goes to great effort to try and help people and you offer nothing but condescension, so you should just go frick right off with that nonsense.
Let's see how this plays out.
And how do you propose people do this without looking at vehicles at those places where they keep them, called dealerships?
Just assume everything with the vehicle is perfect before ever taking a look at it or driving it? I'm guessing you always believe the Nigerian prince in his emails too.
I don't think he said to just stick with one dealer, hence the 'walk away' advice.
Your tactic just has them bidding against each other to beat a specific price. The other tactic has them trying to instantly beat all prices.
Unless these are fleet vehicles, then this speaks against your credibility.
They were probably making good money off of your millennial-like impulsiveness and the fact you are too lazy to thoroughly review such a purchase.
Yeah, they were fricking you over. Not only are you a terrible person but you're a dumbass. You really think they offered you a fair value based on some pictures? You've been getting ripped off, but shite, you're aware it's 2018 and you use the internet so I guess it's OK.
None of which is binding.
They were hooking you up, for sure. Congrats on your failure.
Maybe you're really rich and the money isn't that important to you. But what you've listed is not a winning strategy. It might be convenient, though.
quote:
This is so 1980s and so FULL of fail.
Let's see how this plays out.
quote:
It’s 2018 - if you know what type of vehicle you want
And how do you propose people do this without looking at vehicles at those places where they keep them, called dealerships?
quote:
you don’t have to step into the car dealership until you arrive to pick up your car that you’ve already found the best deal on.
Just assume everything with the vehicle is perfect before ever taking a look at it or driving it? I'm guessing you always believe the Nigerian prince in his emails too.
quote:
You DO NOT get the best price with super duper negotiating tactics at a dealer
I don't think he said to just stick with one dealer, hence the 'walk away' advice.
quote:
“Best prices” will drop like a rock when another dealer beats it. And then that “best price” will drop like a rock too. And so on, and so on. All of this is done in a matter of a couple days, spending just a few minutes each day. You’ll spend 1/10th of the time negotiating online with a half dozen dealers compared to the time you’ll spend haggling inside one dealership.
Your tactic just has them bidding against each other to beat a specific price. The other tactic has them trying to instantly beat all prices.
quote:
ETA: I’ve bought 6 cars in the past 5 years using the online method.
Unless these are fleet vehicles, then this speaks against your credibility.
quote:
Never had a dealer try to change any aspect of the deal
They were probably making good money off of your millennial-like impulsiveness and the fact you are too lazy to thoroughly review such a purchase.
quote:
they’ve always stuck to the trade value quoted based on just photos I’ve emailed.
Yeah, they were fricking you over. Not only are you a terrible person but you're a dumbass. You really think they offered you a fair value based on some pictures? You've been getting ripped off, but shite, you're aware it's 2018 and you use the internet so I guess it's OK.
quote:
Do all negotiating via email or text so it is all in writing.
None of which is binding.
quote:
I’ll allow a brief phone call for an introduction, then I end it with, “Don’t call me again - text me or email me.”
They were hooking you up, for sure. Congrats on your failure.
Maybe you're really rich and the money isn't that important to you. But what you've listed is not a winning strategy. It might be convenient, though.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 5:48 am to starsandstripes
There's more fail in that response than there is in your Q posts, which is plenty.
I've already established that long ago. What's your point?
In saying "if you know what type of vehicle you want," I've already established that you've done the "car choosing" phase. Finding a vehicle and negotiating for a vehicle are two completely separate things and shouldn't be handled at the same time. That being said, with rare exceptions I've always known what kind of vehicle I wanted without having to go shopping. Maybe we're just buying different types of vehicles. Once you've identified which vehicle you want, which color, and which options, then the car buying phase begins. This should not occur inside a dealership on their territory. There are many online sites that allow you to enter all of this information, which will then spit out a list of every dealership around that has that exact vehicle. I find every vehicle that meets my criteria within a 500 mile radius. I hope that clarifies it for you.
Where did I say you can't test drive the vehicle and check it over with a fine toothed comb before you sign the papers? Again, that being said, never have I arrived at a dealership and found something wrong with the car I was picking up. But I have test driven every one before signing.
Right. And if you go from dealer to dealer using the Will Cover method, you're going to spend half your life in car dealerships. I've done it in the pre-internet days. Especially given the fact that the best deals are generally going to be in places like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. - places that will have 50 of a particular model instead of a handful like most local dealerships.
No, it doesn't. The other method has them giving you THEIR best price, not THE best price. Mine has them continually bidding against each other's "best" price. It's not a one shot deal at each to beat the last price - it's an ongoing process. If dealer B beats dealer A's price, then dealer C beats dealer B's price, then dealer A comes down to beat dealer C's price. And so on, and so on...And all of this takes literally MINUTES of your time. A LOT of cars are sold online today, and when they don't have you standing in front of them in their dealership, they are a lot quicker to come down in price to make the sale. People who don't understand this haven't gone through the process. I'm in my 50s, and I learned the "Will Cover" method from one of the most hard arse negotiators I've ever known - my father. I used his method for years and years and got better deals than most. Then 5 years ago I started dealing online and laughed at myself for all the time I wasted using the prior method when I saw the results.
How does liking cars and buying plenty of them speak against my credibility in a discussion about buying cars? More experience makes one less credible? Someone who buys a car every year is less credible at car buying methods than someone who buys one every 6 or 7 years? That makes zero sense. Am I suggesting buying cars every year is the route to financial freedom? Of course not. It wastes lots of money and makes little financial sense. But that has nothing to do with the credibility of the method. More buying = more credibility in negotiating tactics.
How is it "impulsive" to shop many dealers as opposed to just a few dealers? The amount of time that dealing online saves means you are able to shop many more dealers in a fraction of the time. That is the opposite of impulsiveness. It is thoroughness.
Wrong again. Using the tools available online means you can search black book values, NADA values, blue book values, and search a myriad of used car sites to establish a fair value for your trade before you even start negotiating a trade value with dealers. So no, they weren't "fricking me over". Not by a long shot.
I never said any of it was legally binding, but it's a lot more "binding" than a car salesman's spoken word - and makes it a lot easier to call them out on their bullshite. And like I said, I've never had a dealer tack on any additional fees, change any terms, change the trade value, etc. - so in effect, it apparently was pretty damn binding.
Yes, they were hooking me up. I've got as much as $7,000 less than the local dealers' "best price," quite simply because expanding your range opens you to larger volume dealers. Again, a dealer with 50 of a particular model will almost always give you a much better deal than a local dealer with 5 on the lot.
My results prove that it is. :double bird:
If you think playing dealers against each in a half dozen major cities like Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, etc. who have 10x the volume is less successful than walking into and haggling with a local dealership in, for example, Denham Springs...I just don't know what to tell you. But good luck with that "best deal" you got.
quote:
But first, you are a terrible person.
I've already established that long ago. What's your point?
quote:
And how do you propose people do this without looking at vehicles at those places where they keep them, called dealerships?
In saying "if you know what type of vehicle you want," I've already established that you've done the "car choosing" phase. Finding a vehicle and negotiating for a vehicle are two completely separate things and shouldn't be handled at the same time. That being said, with rare exceptions I've always known what kind of vehicle I wanted without having to go shopping. Maybe we're just buying different types of vehicles. Once you've identified which vehicle you want, which color, and which options, then the car buying phase begins. This should not occur inside a dealership on their territory. There are many online sites that allow you to enter all of this information, which will then spit out a list of every dealership around that has that exact vehicle. I find every vehicle that meets my criteria within a 500 mile radius. I hope that clarifies it for you.
quote:
Just assume everything with the vehicle is perfect before ever taking a look at it or driving it? I'm guessing you always believe the Nigerian prince in his emails too.
Where did I say you can't test drive the vehicle and check it over with a fine toothed comb before you sign the papers? Again, that being said, never have I arrived at a dealership and found something wrong with the car I was picking up. But I have test driven every one before signing.
quote:
I don't think he said to just stick with one dealer, hence the 'walk away' advice.
Right. And if you go from dealer to dealer using the Will Cover method, you're going to spend half your life in car dealerships. I've done it in the pre-internet days. Especially given the fact that the best deals are generally going to be in places like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. - places that will have 50 of a particular model instead of a handful like most local dealerships.
quote:
Your tactic just has them bidding against each other to beat a specific price. The other tactic has them trying to instantly beat all prices.
No, it doesn't. The other method has them giving you THEIR best price, not THE best price. Mine has them continually bidding against each other's "best" price. It's not a one shot deal at each to beat the last price - it's an ongoing process. If dealer B beats dealer A's price, then dealer C beats dealer B's price, then dealer A comes down to beat dealer C's price. And so on, and so on...And all of this takes literally MINUTES of your time. A LOT of cars are sold online today, and when they don't have you standing in front of them in their dealership, they are a lot quicker to come down in price to make the sale. People who don't understand this haven't gone through the process. I'm in my 50s, and I learned the "Will Cover" method from one of the most hard arse negotiators I've ever known - my father. I used his method for years and years and got better deals than most. Then 5 years ago I started dealing online and laughed at myself for all the time I wasted using the prior method when I saw the results.
quote:
Unless these are fleet vehicles, then this speaks against your credibility.
How does liking cars and buying plenty of them speak against my credibility in a discussion about buying cars? More experience makes one less credible? Someone who buys a car every year is less credible at car buying methods than someone who buys one every 6 or 7 years? That makes zero sense. Am I suggesting buying cars every year is the route to financial freedom? Of course not. It wastes lots of money and makes little financial sense. But that has nothing to do with the credibility of the method. More buying = more credibility in negotiating tactics.
quote:
They were probably making good money off of your millennial-like impulsiveness and the fact you are too lazy to thoroughly review such a purchase.
How is it "impulsive" to shop many dealers as opposed to just a few dealers? The amount of time that dealing online saves means you are able to shop many more dealers in a fraction of the time. That is the opposite of impulsiveness. It is thoroughness.
quote:
Yeah, they were fricking you over. Not only are you a terrible person but you're a dumbass. You really think they offered you a fair value based on some pictures? You've been getting ripped off, but shite, you're aware it's 2018 and you use the internet so I guess it's OK.
Wrong again. Using the tools available online means you can search black book values, NADA values, blue book values, and search a myriad of used car sites to establish a fair value for your trade before you even start negotiating a trade value with dealers. So no, they weren't "fricking me over". Not by a long shot.
quote:
None of which is binding.
I never said any of it was legally binding, but it's a lot more "binding" than a car salesman's spoken word - and makes it a lot easier to call them out on their bullshite. And like I said, I've never had a dealer tack on any additional fees, change any terms, change the trade value, etc. - so in effect, it apparently was pretty damn binding.
quote:
They were hooking you up, for sure. Congrats on your failure.
Yes, they were hooking me up. I've got as much as $7,000 less than the local dealers' "best price," quite simply because expanding your range opens you to larger volume dealers. Again, a dealer with 50 of a particular model will almost always give you a much better deal than a local dealer with 5 on the lot.
quote:
But what you've listed is not a winning strategy.
My results prove that it is. :double bird:
If you think playing dealers against each in a half dozen major cities like Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, etc. who have 10x the volume is less successful than walking into and haggling with a local dealership in, for example, Denham Springs...I just don't know what to tell you. But good luck with that "best deal" you got.
This post was edited on 4/23/18 at 6:11 am
Posted on 4/23/18 at 6:44 am to Will Cover
Cmon man the last thing I need this week is a bunch of yahoos trying to art of the deal me. Sticker price is a fair price. When you haggle with a salesman you take up his valuable time and take food out of his kids mouths
Posted on 4/23/18 at 6:56 am to Will Cover
Will Cover, I apologize for being a dick to you in my first response.
I understand that you took a lot of time to put that together. But it's frustrating to think that people still go through all of that hassle to think they are getting the best price. My frustration stems from years of being dragged to car dealership after car dealership in my youth when my dad needed a new luxury vehicle every year and would haggle until the salesmen would want to hang themselves.
I did the same for decades. And I was damn good at it. But 5 years ago I was buying a particular car that I could only find out of state. I didn't trust online dealing but was forced to do it in that situation. Once I did, I realized that all of my fears about online dealing were for naught. Since then, online has been my go-to method - and having done both methods, online gets you the best deals by far and is much less stressful. It's just a fact if you know what you are doing.
I understand that you took a lot of time to put that together. But it's frustrating to think that people still go through all of that hassle to think they are getting the best price. My frustration stems from years of being dragged to car dealership after car dealership in my youth when my dad needed a new luxury vehicle every year and would haggle until the salesmen would want to hang themselves.
I did the same for decades. And I was damn good at it. But 5 years ago I was buying a particular car that I could only find out of state. I didn't trust online dealing but was forced to do it in that situation. Once I did, I realized that all of my fears about online dealing were for naught. Since then, online has been my go-to method - and having done both methods, online gets you the best deals by far and is much less stressful. It's just a fact if you know what you are doing.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 7:18 am to Will Cover
Will, I’d like to add that just because those luxury dealers have no holdback listed, DO NOT pay MSRP or MSRP-incentives for those cars.
I guess most people lease them anyway, but there’s no reason why you can’t get 10-14% off MSRP on one, no matter what the local dealer tells you.
I guess most people lease them anyway, but there’s no reason why you can’t get 10-14% off MSRP on one, no matter what the local dealer tells you.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 7:36 am to Engineer
quote:
What’s the response if you’re explicitly asked? Seems like anything other than a hard no up front is a yes to them.
I said my wife is going to now use my car. When we agreed on a price, I said I would have to trade in my vehicle to afford that...
Posted on 4/23/18 at 7:39 am to TigrrrDad
quote:
I've got as much as $7,000 less
quote:
My results prove that it is. :double bird:
For the record, someone in this very thread got 10k off using the Will Cover method and they aren't even an "expert" like you. You're just being a cocksucker because someone does something different than you.
Posted on 4/23/18 at 7:50 am to Will Cover
I would add one more important point to this discussion.
Most people don't have a budget in their household. They see facts like "its only $100 a week" and think "I make 65k a year!
What they should do is to actually run the numbers in their home. Take their annual income and take out taxes and healthcare and the mortgage and every other commitment you have - then see what $$ is left over.
Then you can ask yourself the question:
"Do I want to spend __ % of my disposable income on a car payment?"
For those of you in this thread who talk about how little you drive each year, its a far better decision to buy used. Your car will last 20 years at that mileage.
I have a friend who just sold his 2006 Honda Accord that had 408,000 miles on it. It never broke down on him once. My college roommate has a Ford F150 with 388,000 miles on it. (Both of these guys have postgraduate degrees and make at least 250k a year). Smart money makes these kind of decisions.
In this situation, just appreciate what Will Cover is trying to do for you. Your best decision is probably to buy a 5 year old vehicle from a private party. But if you decide to buy new, at least use his method to try and save some $$.
I would never begrudge someone taking a "life is meant to be enjoyed" approach to buying a new car. Just do it. However, don't try to convince yourself you made a good financial decision. It is no smarter than buying a StarBucks coffee twice a day.
Most people don't have a budget in their household. They see facts like "its only $100 a week" and think "I make 65k a year!
What they should do is to actually run the numbers in their home. Take their annual income and take out taxes and healthcare and the mortgage and every other commitment you have - then see what $$ is left over.
Then you can ask yourself the question:
"Do I want to spend __ % of my disposable income on a car payment?"
For those of you in this thread who talk about how little you drive each year, its a far better decision to buy used. Your car will last 20 years at that mileage.
I have a friend who just sold his 2006 Honda Accord that had 408,000 miles on it. It never broke down on him once. My college roommate has a Ford F150 with 388,000 miles on it. (Both of these guys have postgraduate degrees and make at least 250k a year). Smart money makes these kind of decisions.
In this situation, just appreciate what Will Cover is trying to do for you. Your best decision is probably to buy a 5 year old vehicle from a private party. But if you decide to buy new, at least use his method to try and save some $$.
I would never begrudge someone taking a "life is meant to be enjoyed" approach to buying a new car. Just do it. However, don't try to convince yourself you made a good financial decision. It is no smarter than buying a StarBucks coffee twice a day.
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