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Started By
Message
re: There should be little sympathy for college graduates struggling to earn a livable wage
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:01 am to lsupride87
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:01 am to lsupride87
quote:
Compare a 1500 sqft house in 1995 to a 1500 sq ft house in 2024 as a percentage to average salary
Compare the same exact groceries in 1995 to 2024 as a percentage to average salary
It isn’t a wash.
Why 1995?
I already did the 80s.
Look, I'm not going to dispute that there's absolutely no 10 year period in the history of the country during which this period doesn't compare.
That's the point. Economies wax and wane and conditions change. Like I posted above, the price of houses doubled between 1980 and 1989.
But if I have time later I will do 1995. You may be surprised.
And if not, all that means is that the 90s are the outlier, not the 2020s.
This post was edited on 9/12/24 at 11:03 am
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:02 am to lsupride87
quote:
And all of that is more expensive today relative to avarage salary
There is nothing you can do to erase that fact
You need to read the whole thread before replying.
I already debunked that.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:26 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
But to be fair, legitimately less affordable than it used to be.
Probably, because college used to be super cheap. But it CAN be cheap now.
Community college in Louisiana is about $2200 per semester for 15 hours. That means you could transfer to LSU as a junior having spent around $10,000 on your first two years of college.
If you have TOPS, then most of that is covered. If you don't have TOPS, you probably shouldn't be in college.
At LSU. they estiimate the annual cost of tuition at $11,954 for a Louisiana resident. Again, TOPS covers most of this.
So, even without TOPS, you can get a college degree in Louisiana for $35,000. With TOPS, basically free.
There are virtually no residents of Louisiana that don't live within commuting distance of a 4 year university.
This post was edited on 9/12/24 at 11:34 am
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:39 am to wackatimesthree
Curious how this would change if you used MEDIAN income instead of AVERAGE income?
It seems that Median income, while not perfect since it probably includes a growing "lower class", would be a little better for debunking the idea that it's more difficult to achieve a similar "middle class" lifestyle since, at very least, it would balance out the tremendous growth in the very highest incomes since the 1980s?
It seems that Median income, while not perfect since it probably includes a growing "lower class", would be a little better for debunking the idea that it's more difficult to achieve a similar "middle class" lifestyle since, at very least, it would balance out the tremendous growth in the very highest incomes since the 1980s?
Posted on 9/12/24 at 11:42 am to wm72
quote:
Curious how this would change if you used MEDIAN income instead of AVERAGE income?
I'll do it when I have time.
I used "average" simply because that was the implication of the specific post I was replying to.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 12:25 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
I'll do it when I have time.
I used "average" simply because that was the implication of the specific post I was replying to.
Would be interesting to see. Yours was a good post with actual statistics. I wasn't necessarily trying to argue with it as much as it made a lot of other factors cross my mind.
One issue none of these numbers can't easily address though is the increasing concentration of "middle" income jobs into larger urban areas.
I own two houses through inheritance, one in a small southern Alabama town and one in Pensacola, Florida but I live in Brooklyn NY where I rent an apartment.
Your post made me think of how different all three of these places are in terms in average salary and average home prices over the years: mainly the extreme divergence of small town Alabama to Brooklyn, NY over the past 40 years.
In the smaller Alabama town, most of small factories shut down as well as most of locally owned businesses were replaced by chains during these years and there's just not much market for a lot of nice 3-4br homes anymore.
Whereas in Brooklyn, the salaries are sky high but to actually buy a small condo or small home would mean pushing an extra hour's commute away every few years.
It seems like the extra jobs have moved away from the extra houses.
This post was edited on 9/12/24 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 9/12/24 at 12:33 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
0% of students acknowledged cheating most of the time, while 30% admitted to cheating at least once during an online exam. According to a prior survey, 80% of students participate in academic cheating.
And what gets me is most admit it and even brag about it. There is no shame, no remorse.
My sister-in-law teaches high school and she makes four different tests when she hands them out the cheating is so rampant and commonplace.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 1:10 pm to JasonDBlaha
quote:
With the availability of the Internet and ChatGPT, cheating has never been easier.
Professors don’t take the time to make their own exams and borrow questions from test banks. Students take these questions and post them on Quizlet. All you have to do for an online assignment or quiz is copy and paste a question onto the Google Search bar. Quizlet results will pop up with the answers. Students have been doing this since the pandemic
Students also pay for ChatGPT software to write their own papers and give them answers on assignments.
Before "quizlet" or internet cheating, people kept test banks. Our fraternity house in college had filing cabinets filled with old tests from every professor that would let you keep them. We'd make flashcards with all of the old questions and answers. Sororities did this too.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 1:16 pm to CatfishJohn
quote:
LINK
Did you ever see that YouTube video of a UCF professor going off on his class for cheating because they all had test banks before an exam? It’s hilarious
Posted on 9/12/24 at 1:28 pm to wackatimesthree
So you are saying a college degree is worthless while attacking Gen Z folks for cheating to obtain this worthless college degree? I think these opinions are mutually exclusive.
But in all honesty, did anyone actually obtain higher intellect in college? I know I did not and hardly retained anything.
I see college as a filter for the soon to be adult population. Make good to decent grades and stay out of trouble in an environment where you are essentially free to make your own choices without you parents and you can choose the wrong path quickly.
Now the price of college is another story and ridiculous.
But in all honesty, did anyone actually obtain higher intellect in college? I know I did not and hardly retained anything.
I see college as a filter for the soon to be adult population. Make good to decent grades and stay out of trouble in an environment where you are essentially free to make your own choices without you parents and you can choose the wrong path quickly.
Now the price of college is another story and ridiculous.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 1:45 pm to wackatimesthree
O.k., I couldn't find averages without going state by state, so I'm switching gears and using median figures for this comparison.
The median home price in 1995 was $114,600.
Median income was $34,067.
For a ratio of 3.31.
So that we're comparing apples to apples, here's 1980 and 1989 using median values instead of averages:
1980 home price: $47,200
1980 salary: $11,195 (could only find household income so I divided it by two. It's close enough to the average individual income that I feel comfortable doing that).
1980 ratio: 4.22
1989 home price: $120,000
1989 salary: $25,840.50
1989 ratio: 4.64
2024 home price: $327,667
2024 salary: $57,980 (I could only find these broken down by state so I threw out the 5 highest and 5 lowest and averaged the rest)
2024 ratio: 5.65
So sure, there's a significant difference between 2024 and 1995.
But as I expected, 1995 is as much an outlier in one direction as 2024 is in the other direction. More, actually.
And if you did a five year analysis instead of just picking one year, the gap would close further.
Finally, when you factor in the difference in the interest rates in the mortgages in those years, you'd see even less difference.
But yeah, the 90s were a good time to buy a house. Not nearly as good a time to buy a computer or a t.v., but yeah.
The median home price in 1995 was $114,600.
Median income was $34,067.
For a ratio of 3.31.
So that we're comparing apples to apples, here's 1980 and 1989 using median values instead of averages:
1980 home price: $47,200
1980 salary: $11,195 (could only find household income so I divided it by two. It's close enough to the average individual income that I feel comfortable doing that).
1980 ratio: 4.22
1989 home price: $120,000
1989 salary: $25,840.50
1989 ratio: 4.64
2024 home price: $327,667
2024 salary: $57,980 (I could only find these broken down by state so I threw out the 5 highest and 5 lowest and averaged the rest)
2024 ratio: 5.65
So sure, there's a significant difference between 2024 and 1995.
But as I expected, 1995 is as much an outlier in one direction as 2024 is in the other direction. More, actually.
And if you did a five year analysis instead of just picking one year, the gap would close further.
Finally, when you factor in the difference in the interest rates in the mortgages in those years, you'd see even less difference.
But yeah, the 90s were a good time to buy a house. Not nearly as good a time to buy a computer or a t.v., but yeah.
This post was edited on 9/12/24 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 9/12/24 at 1:54 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
Consider the following:
quote:
According to the study’s findings, 60% of students acknowledged cheating most of the time, while 30% admitted to cheating at least once during an online exam. According to a prior survey, 80% of students participate in academic cheating.
LINK
quote:
A lot of the faculty members I’ve talked to frequently say, I don’t know what’s going to happen to these students once they enter the working world. We’re not talking about, wow, they didn’t read Moby Dick. We’re talking about these fundamental critical reading and writing skills that students are really struggling to master, and maybe even don’t necessarily see the point of mastering
quote:
Something’s happening with college students in reading. Or maybe it’s better to say something’s not happening. College professors are used to assigning work that doesn’t get done that comes with the territory. But many now say that their students are coming to campus woefully unprepared. The class of Gen Z, born in the iPhone age is struggling to read and comprehend long passages. They may be distracted by a barrage of social media. Some of them, professors will tell you, don’t see the point of learning at all. Why is this happening? What does it say about what college is for? And is there anything we can do about it?
quote:
Yeah, I think there are a lot of things going on here. I think the rise of social media has really changed the way we think about text and about reading. I think about this particular professor I spoke to who is an English professor, and he said, you know, he always would ask his students to tell a narrative about their own interaction with reading, their own reading history. And not that long ago they would talk about, you know, reading for pleasure or having their parents read to them at bedtime, you know, Harry Potter books and things like that. And in the last few years, they talk about things like reading on TikTok, reading on Instagram, texts, you know, so the way in which we’ve read has sort of shrunk and fundamentally changed.
LINK
quote:
Galli Robertson is not alone in clocking a change. Much has been made of students’ spotty classroom attendance and disengagement from their work. But a less-discussed dilemma may end up mattering even more: Students are struggling to complete significant work on their own. Some professors — who see a big paper or project as integral to assessing what students know and can do — have cut down on other parts of their courses so that students can pull it off.
LINK
There's growing discontent with our national economy because inflation and housing prices make it difficult for young people to feel like they can invest in their futures. They supposedly "can't" buy a house, build savings, or enact their standard of living because their employment status and potential wages do not match the cost of living where the jobs are for college graduates. Gen Z in particular have even eschewed traditional forms of work, joining millennials who see "work from home" as a right to life" along with the prospect of earning a high income through social media content and online shops.
Now, I'm not saying there aren't problems in the world. However, there's a lot of shite thrown at universities for their inability to prepare kids these days for the workforce. There's growing sentiment that vocational schools and the trades are a better avenue. I completely agree but not so much to avoid the indoctrination of progressive idealism but more so because most college graduates aren't actually college material.
If you can't read, comprehend, decipher, and apply long passages in order to generate unique personal insights on complex problems/prompts because you'd rather doom scroll Tik Tok, you shouldn't be in college. If you can't be bothered to attend class or make an effort to complete assignments that the professor has deemed essential to proving you've engaged in higher learning of a subject, you shouldn't be in college. If you're cheating on exams and failing to see the value of assessments in determining your learned knowledge because college is supposed to be a simple transaction between a consumer and their "deserved/entitled" wealth, then you shouldn't be in college.
And you damn well shouldn't be a college graduate and you certainly don't deserve a "livable wage" in metro areas with professional jobs.
I know we've beaten this topic to death, but often we criticize the colleges, deservedly so, but the coddling of these iPad kids has led to a horde of spoiled brats who think the world should be a playpen instead of a place that requires hard work, sincerity, and integrity in all things they decide to do. Life isn't content consumption.
TLDR
They can go work TAs in the plants local or on the road and make six figures with no education. Might not be want they want to do right now but it will pay the bills with a little fun money till they figure out what is next. You lost me at livable wage.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 2:40 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
They also have way different standards of living than people did 30 years ago.
Lower class people try to live like middle class, while middle class tries to live like upper class.
I grew up solid middle class. We rarely ate out and would take maybe one cheap vacation per year.
There are poor people eating out every meal.
The cost of living narrative is a bit misleading.
This is 100% true. I see them driving new cars a lot more often than I did. Lots of them do leases, but that means you have a car payment forever.
We ate out once per week and did not have alcohol with our meal. Streaming services, cell phone services, internet...all cost much more than our basic cable package. But a lot of those younger people get a new Iphone every 3 years and have the package where you just pay all the time, but can keep a new phone often. Instead, I'm still using my 4 year old phone and will do so at least another year.
I see people with a lot more clothes and shoes than I had.
I'm not even saying right or wrong on this because I buy a lot more stuff than I used to. We have become a much more consumptive society and it costs us in a lot of ways.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:08 pm to LaLadyinTx
quote:
I'm not even saying right or wrong on this because I buy a lot more stuff than I used to. We have become a much more consumptive society and it costs us in a lot of ways.
Absolutely.
I don't live like my parents did when I was a kid either.
But I also have the perspective to realize the difference and how it factors into this "doomed youth" narrative.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:13 pm to Mushroom1968
quote:
Wife and I were damn near 30 before we moved to a "decent" area.
I was 33 and my Wife 28 when we bought our first home. It was in the burbs 30-40 minutes south of the city. It's what most would consider a "starter home." I make significantly more than I did when we purchased our home in 2018. She does too. We couldn't afford to buy our own house now with what the market says it's worth and with what interest rates are.
quote:
hen 30 years ago, after HS, all of the people I knew and myself lived in the ghettos or out in the country to afford a house
and this kills me. Exactly zero kids in 2024, right out of high school could buy a house anywhere, including the ghetto or country. But good for you growing up in a generation where that was a possibility for you and all of your friends
This post was edited on 9/12/24 at 3:19 pm
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:29 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
Today's workforce: "Don't email me after hours"
yesterday's workforce. 5:30-6:00 PM....Ring ring,... "voicemail: office is closed, please call back tomorrow morning." Generation before. ring, ring, ring, ring, ring...no answer.
It would be fantastic to be able to leave work at work and clients not having 24/7 access to me. Technology has forced younger generations to work more hours, not fewer
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:39 pm to lsufball19
quote:
yesterday's workforce. 5:30-6:00 PM....Ring ring,... "voicemail: office is closed, please call back tomorrow morning." Generation before. ring, ring, ring, ring, ring...no answer.
Complete bullshite.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:45 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
What makes college expensive is the room/board/etc.
SO does tuition. I'm from Tennessee. When I graduated high school (2003), it was the first year HOPE was a thing. In-State tuition was $5200/year and Hope was $5000/year. Housing was ~$5000/year to live in the dorm rooms.
Flash forward to 2024. In-state tuition at UT is currently $13,800. Room and board is also over $13,000/year.
So total costs for tuition plus room and board went from a shade over $10k/year to $26k/year. That's a 260% bump in 20 years. The price of education is ridiculous and far outpacing inflation. It's not just room and board. It's everything
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:52 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
Complete bullshite.
It's not complete bullshite. Your client's didn't have your home phone number and e-mail didn't exist. How exactly were your client's calling you after business hours? Office is closed, phones are rolled over to answering machines to be listened to when the office opens the next day. It's only bullshite if you want to argue technology that wasn't prevalent (or didn't exist) then actually was (or did).
Sorry, your comment about after hours e-mails was retarded.
Posted on 9/12/24 at 3:54 pm to lsufball19
quote:
I make significantly more than I did when we purchased our home in 2018. She does too. We couldn't afford to buy our own house now with what the market says it's worth and with what interest rates are.
So what?
Then you would have stayed in the starter house.
This sense of entitlement is what I'm talking about. Nobody owes you the opportunity to afford a certain type of house.
My parents were 39 and 40 when they could afford to buy their first house.
So good for you that you live in a generation in which you and all your friends could afford to buy one 7-12 years earlier.
See how that works both ways?
Y'all are simply ignorant of what life was like before your childhood in the mid-1990s. Markets go up and down. Life happened before y'all's generation and a lot of the time it was pretty much the same and for some of it it was a lot worse.
My grandparents were around 30 years old when the Great Depression hit.
Yet I never once heard anybody from that generation bitch or whine like today's young people do.
And you want to talk about living frugally? That was the generation that would buy a couch and cover it with plastic so that nobody sat directly on it for the first five years they had it.
Yeah, prices are up right now. Five years from now they might be a lot lower. When you're talking economics cherry picking short time frames isn't very instructive.
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